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    1. #21
      masterofspelss's Avatar
        masterofspelss is offline Legendary Wizard

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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by Patrick FairyStalker View Post
      This is an unfair comparison because life and ice king arts have addition effects. You also ignore the equalizing effect of enchantments.

      Let's compare Frost Giant and Storm Lord, since they both have the same effects.

      Enchanted Frost Giant does 460+300 = 760
      Enchanted Storm Lord does 690+300 = 990

      With a 35% blade, Frost Giant does 760*1.35 = 1026. That's more than base enchanted Storm Lord.

      Let's say an average offensive ice has 100% damage, and an average storm has 170% damage. With one 35% blade, the ice will effectively have 170% damage. (note that blades are multiplicative, not additive, so it wouldn't just be 135%).

      Adding it all together, a storm with 170% damage will deal 2673 for a storm lord.
      An ice with two 35% blades with 100% damage will deal 2770 for a frost giant.

      In other words, an ice only needs to cast 2 extra blades to be on par with a storm wizard, damage wise. This is where ice's strengths come in. Ice has the health and resist to survive 2 extra rounds.

      Storm Artorious has an added bonus as well though. And yeah, you basically proved my point, Ice with a few Blades will deal as much as Storm, which is the point of blades. To make it extremely simple, I'll use made up cards so we can do the math.

      School A has a spell that does 500 damage. They also get a blade that gets boosts the damage by 40%.

      School B has a spell that does 800 damage. They get a blade that boosts the damage by 30%.

      Okay, so damage alone, which spell does more? 800, obviously. So now school A uses their 40% blade. Their spell that would normally do 500, gets boosted to 700. That's still under school B's spell by 100.

      Okay, so now let's add in the fact that both schools get access to an additional 35% blade. So school A uses their 40% blade, and 35% blade. Their attack of 500 gets increased to 945. Their spell now did more than school B's.

      School B uses their single 30% blade, and now their spell does 1040.

      So, which spell does more damage? School B's. Because even though they only used one blade, their base damage is already 300 more points than school A's.

      But hold on, school A's 40% blade just got reduced to 35%, and school B's got boosted to 35%.

      School A's 500 damage spell, only does 675. School B's 800 damage spell, is now 1080.

      Do you see what I'm trying to say? School A will always need to use two blades to do around the same damage as school B. Simply because, 800 is a higher number than 500. Duh.

      "But school B is the hitter! School A isn't supposed to have high damage!"


      True, so that's exactly why it takes two blades for school A to do around the same damage as school B, without blades.

      "But school A has more HP and defensive capabilities than school B!"


      Yes, they do. This doesn't change the fact that school A needs two entire blades to be on par damage wise.

      "But the fact that they can means it's unfair!"

      A bird was born to fly, man was not. Man built machines to help them fly, and they did. But man will never be a bird, they will always need their machines to fly, while the bird only needs itself.

      To put it bluntly. Changing the blades is ridicoulous when it hampers certain schools and benefits others. If a school needed to be boosted, KI can boost that specific school, there is zero reason for them to nerf others. But like I said, this decision was entirely PvP based, so because one school is more dominant, means they get the short-end of the stick.


      "I'm the Doctor"

    2. #22
      ChoGath's Avatar
        ChoGath is offline Grandmaster Wizard
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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by JaredSpellFrost View Post
      What the heck, KingsIsle. School blades, traps, and bubbles are all supposed to be catered to their identity! Ice, Life, and Death receive 40% Blades because they deal the least amount of damage. The extra percentages help compensate for this, or in some cases like with Storm, it balances out their naturally high base damage.

      So much for the Devs focusing on school identity!

      I think the key is determined by the base spell damage, which is (Hopefully) audited and moved into the appropriate damage curve for the school. Damage bubbles, blades, and traps are now constants that are stacked into the school specific base spell damage.

      Quote Originally Posted by masterofspelss View Post
      ...
      Quote Originally Posted by masterofspelss View Post
      To put it bluntly. Changing the blades is ridicoulous when it hampers certain schools and benefits others. If a school needed to be boosted, KI can boost that specific school, there is zero reason for them to nerf others. But like I said, this decision was entirely PvP based, so because one school is more dominant, means they get the short-end of the stick.


      Given Ice's and fire's long dominance, I cannot help but smile about Storm, Death, and Life getting a buff.
      Last edited by ChoGath; 4-6-21 at 3:18:03 PM.

    3. #23
      Happy Fun Ball's Avatar
        Happy Fun Ball is offline Legendary Wizard
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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by Patrick FairyStalker View Post
      In other words, an ice only needs to cast 2 extra blades to be on par with a storm wizard, damage wise. This is where ice's strengths come in. Ice has the health and resist to survive 2 extra rounds.
      Or put another way, ice will have to wait to use frost giant for the same damage on round 3 compared to storm, who can use storm lord on round 1.*


      And yes, it's possible to start with 7 pips on round 1.

    4. #24
      Patrick FairyStalker's Avatar
        Patrick FairyStalker is offline Master Wizard
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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by masterofspelss View Post
      Storm Artorious has an added bonus as well though. And yeah, you basically proved my point, Ice with a few Blades will deal as much as Storm, which is the point of blades. To make it extremely simple, I'll use made up cards so we can do the math.

      School A has a spell that does 500 damage. They also get a blade that gets boosts the damage by 40%.

      School B has a spell that does 800 damage. They get a blade that boosts the damage by 30%.

      Okay, so damage alone, which spell does more? 800, obviously. So now school A uses their 40% blade. Their spell that would normally do 500, gets boosted to 700. That's still under school B's spell by 100.

      Okay, so now let's add in the fact that both schools get access to an additional 35% blade. So school A uses their 40% blade, and 35% blade. Their attack of 500 gets increased to 945. Their spell now did more than school B's.

      School B uses their single 30% blade, and now their spell does 1040.

      So, which spell does more damage? School B's. Because even though they only used one blade, their base damage is already 300 more points than school A's.

      But hold on, school A's 40% blade just got reduced to 35%, and school B's got boosted to 35%.

      School A's 500 damage spell, only does 675. School B's 800 damage spell, is now 1080.

      Do you see what I'm trying to say? School A will always need to use two blades to do around the same damage as school B. Simply because, 800 is a higher number than 500. Duh.

      "But school B is the hitter! School A isn't supposed to have high damage!"


      True, so that's exactly why it takes two blades for school A to do around the same damage as school B, without blades.

      "But school A has more HP and defensive capabilities than school B!"


      Yes, they do. This doesn't change the fact that school A needs two entire blades to be on par damage wise.

      "But the fact that they can means it's unfair!"

      A bird was born to fly, man was not. Man built machines to help them fly, and they did. But man will never be a bird, they will always need their machines to fly, while the bird only needs itself.

      To put it bluntly. Changing the blades is ridicoulous when it hampers certain schools and benefits others. If a school needed to be boosted, KI can boost that specific school, there is zero reason for them to nerf others. But like I said, this decision was entirely PvP based, so because one school is more dominant, means they get the short-end of the stick.
      Every king art has the pierce blade. The difference is that ice and life have another effect. KI decided to ignore the pierce blade in their pip-cost analysis for these spells specifically.

      Beyond that, I'm firm with the idea that ice needs to cast 2 blades to be on par with an unboosted storm. That's just fundamentally a drawback of the ice school.

      I care about the big picture as a nerdy math kid. Frankly, if everyone got a 40% blade, I would be equally satisfied with the result, and I have a feeling Centralians would be happier with this than the universal 35%.

      I know that the average PvE player is averse to any nerf. If your damage isn't increasing, the update is useless. I get that. But there's a method to their madness. As much as people want to insert PvP into every issue, the devs care about balancing for all schools - inside and outside PvP. The creators of the game did not have a long-term plan for balancing. This is being fixed today.

      As an aside, life and death are not overpowered in PvP. This blade update just happened to also impact the most powerful PvP school (ice). The goal was big picture balancing.
      Last edited by Patrick FairyStalker; 4-6-21 at 8:59:35 PM.

    5. #25
      Happy Fun Ball's Avatar
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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      My main problem with the blade value change isn't the decrease for certain schools. Now it's impossible to tell the difference between tc blades and those with tc sharpened blade (which are both 45%). There should be a symbol or something that shows the enchantment, or something like with tc extraordinary that adds the 20% text in a way you know what you used on it.

    6. #26
        Orzee is offline Apprentice Wizard

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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by Happy Fun Ball View Post
      My main problem with the blade value change isn't the decrease for certain schools. Now it's impossible to tell the difference between tc blades and those with tc sharpened blade (which are both 45%). There should be a symbol or something that shows the enchantment, or something like with tc extraordinary that adds the 20% text in a way you know what you used on it.
      Piggybacking off this idea, a huge QoL would be having circular border of selected spells previews (what you see before hovering over it to see what others are casting) correspond to whether the spell is an item card (blue border), spell card (regular brown), and tc (gold) with enchanted spells having some way to distinguish them. Maybe they can stack too (item potent trap + feint could be brown with a second blue outline).

      Either way, the UI needs improvements. I'd like to see them redo the combat UI now, since they keep adding new layers over the small brown box which is barely big enough to display health or fit long names. The critical, damage, and block chance add seems just functional enough that people don't care how unpleasing it is. UI is an art which is supposed to improve User Experience (UX).

      As Happy Fun Ball mentioned, there's no way to tell these cards apart. A hot idea since the inception of Sharpen (especially before the hanging effects preview feature) was to change the blades/traps slightly (much like indemnity does), which could be shown in the card preview. I imagine it's easy to implement since you can enchant spells to form new spells entirely (i.e. storm kraken -> inferno kraken).

    7. #27
      masterofspelss's Avatar
        masterofspelss is offline Legendary Wizard

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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by Patrick FairyStalker View Post
      Every king art has the pierce blade. The difference is that ice and life have another effect. KI decided to ignore the pierce blade in their pip-cost analysis for these spells specifically.
      What's you point? This is about damage. If you want another example, Climaclsym and Lamassu do 732, Iron Sultan does 948.
      Beyond that, I'm firm with the idea that ice needs to cast 2 blades to be on par with an unboosted storm. That's just fundamentally a drawback of the ice school.
      Yes, because Ice isn't a hitter. Glad we agree.
      I care about the big picture as a nerdy math kid. Frankly, if everyone got a 40% blade, I would be equally satisfied with the result, and I have a feeling Centralians would be happier with this than the universal 35%.
      That wouldn't be ideal, but I'd rather they boost some blades than nerf others.
      I know that the average PvE player is averse to any nerf. If your damage isn't increasing, the update is useless. I get that. But there's a method to their madness. As much as people want to insert PvP into every issue, the devs care about balancing for all schools - inside and outside PvP. The creators of the game did not have a long-term plan for balancing. This is being fixed today.
      What are they balancing by reducing some school's blade? Genuine question.
      As an aside, life and death are not overpowered in PvP. This blade update just happened to also impact the most powerful PvP school (ice). The goal was big picture balancing.

      Again, what is being balanced here? Why would an AI mob care if Ice, Death, and Life, have a 40% blade or not.
      Comments in bold.
      Last edited by masterofspelss; 4-7-21 at 5:52:36 PM.


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    8. #28
      Patrick FairyStalker's Avatar
        Patrick FairyStalker is offline Master Wizard
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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by masterofspelss View Post
      What are they balancing by reducing some school's blade? Genuine question.
      I'm genuinely glad you asked. Firstly, I don't claim to know what exactly happens in the KI discussion rooms. But the reason that 40% blades are significantly better than 30% is the idea of acceleration. A percentage-based advantage is much better then base damage (eg base card damage, base stats) in the long run. This gives disproportionally advantages ice as a hitter, while discouraging storms from bladestacking.

      But here's some quick math. As a setup, I used Climacisym/Lamassu and Iron sultan as an example, with a +300 enchant.
      The ice has 100% damage, and the storm has 170% damage. I assume everyone is able to use 2 different sharpen blades. (so an ice with 35% blades will have 45%, 45%, and the rest 35%)



      Figure 1. In the past (live realm), ice/life only had to use 1 extra blade to be ahead of storm. I'll reiterate that. This storm sacrifices defenses, health, and overall survivability get 70% extra damage. But they will still be behind ice after just one blade.


      Figure 2. Now (test realm), storm is able to able to reap the benefits of their 70% extra base damage.



      Figure 3. Lastly, this is why I don't believe the 5% nerf to life/ice blade is game-breaking. All you need to do to catch up is cast 1 extra blade.



      Figure 4. For tough bosses with 50k+ health, you'll usually see much more than 5 blades. Due to the nature of multiplication, these graphs will widen.In fact, ice is better than storm for high health bosses, to a point where it's not even comparable. This is Figure 1, extended.

      So this is what I mean by long term advantages. As bosses get tougher (in the old system), ice gets better to the point where storm isn't even viable anymore.
      Last edited by Patrick FairyStalker; 4-7-21 at 8:55:52 PM.

    9. #29
      Oxnhorse's Avatar
        Oxnhorse is offline Magus Wizard

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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      @Eric Stormbringer, @Ratbeard, @Sparck:

      To me, balancing out the 7 schools seems like a misguided idea, because if all of them were to be a level playing field, they wouldn't have exclusive spells that the rest cannot obtain.

      For example, Life has an exclusive 420 for Fairy and can choose who they heal, whereas the other 6 get 400 health restoration, but must heal themselves.

      Or how about Storm having Tempest from the start, while the rest have single attack spells.

      On top of that, their are school specific spell quests that grant Life there Forest Lord or Death their Scarecrow.

      Regarding gameplay, Ice has always been know as the Tank, Life the Healer and Storm or Fire as Hitters. Why? Because these schools were created to take charge in various aspects of gameplay.

      Is it unfair? Maybe. But honestly, some of us here have been playing almost as long as the game has been around, and of all the schools; Ice is hated because traditionally Ice has gotten the best defense stats at the expense of the others. Life and Death have been the schools that have been the traditional healers, Balance a go between to supplement the others, and Fire, Storm and Myth as Hitters.

      In addition, Ice, Life and Death were given +40 blades, while Fire, Storm and Balance have lower amounts. Why is this?

      When the game was originally introduced to most people in the Summer of 2009, as the game begins with selecting our wizards, it is all completely random if you take the test at the beginning of the game and is dependent on our choices.

      If you lower the baseline on stats among all the schools to be equal, you will have a game that has destroyed the individuality of the game on which it was created. For example, instead of using points to build up our secondary school selections, what would the point be in burning 6 or 7 training points in order to have Earthquake? Or around 8 for Feint?

      KI has the exclusive right to destroy Wizard101 by changing, nerfing or taking away aspects of the game that have drawn many people to this game, but I will point out that in June of 2009, my Ice Wyvern had a DoT with its spell card and was unique to Ice, and by 2011 was taken away because of what? AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE TO EVERYONE ELSE.

      And I have seen within the past 3 years that every time an update occurs, it seems as if Fire is seen as having the better advantage point over everyone else which isn't true. Must I remind people ITS HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME?

      The fighting styles of Tank, Healer and Hitter isn't about always being first, but you want someone like an Ice, WHO WAS CREATED BY KI to have the most defense, to go first to take the brunt of the damage in the fight, and you want your Life/Death as Healer to go last to ensure your team gets through the fight together, and set up your Fire and Storm as Hitter to deal awesome amounts of damage.

      WORKING TOGETHER AS A TEAM is how most of us have gotten through the Spiral, too bad many others have not learned this lesson.

      Oxnhorse

    10. #30
      masterofspelss's Avatar
        masterofspelss is offline Legendary Wizard

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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      @Patrick FairyStalker

      I already did the math for you in my example, and basically said what you said. Ice (or Life/Death) will need to use blades to do equal damage to Storm without blades. And yes, they donít need to sacrifice HP or defense for it because... they arenít hitting schools. Thatís why they need to use multiple blades to do equal damage... did I not make that clear?

      So moving on from that part, you didnít answer why you think this is balancing things. Because like I said before, an AI will not care if a person has a 40% blade or a 35% blade, so... tell me again how this is for the overall game and not just for PvP. Again, we already stated Life/Death/Ice need to blade stack to do equal damage to a school like Storm and Fire, so donít use that topic in your answer.


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