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    1. #91
      Eric Stormbringer's Avatar
        Eric Stormbringer is offline Wizard101 US Faculty

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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by Oxnhorse View Post
      But, if they refuse to nerf the Life Blade and Death Blade which also gets +40, then Ice is being singled out for being accused of having an unfair advantage when I have clearly shown my Ice needs assistance, when my Storm needs the occasional help.
      Oxnhorse
      I think there may be some confusion. Ice's buff's aren't being lowered below every other school's buffs. What is happening is that everyone's buffs are being standardized with blades at +35%(except balance which remains at 25%), traps at +30%, globals at +25% and spears at +20%. As life and death did not have damage globals prior to this update- they were granted them in this test realm.

      The full Dev Diary can be found here: Test Realm Dev Diary. Below is a portion of the Dev Diary that explains the above concept in greater detail.
      Name:  Spring 2021 Test Realm- Core Buff Standardization.PNG
Views: 93
Size:  258.1 KB
      Last edited by Eric Stormbringer; 4-11-21 at 12:49:55 PM.

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    2. #92
      Bailey Jade's Avatar
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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by ChoGath View Post
      I think that KI has been clear about separating PvP and PvE impacts. Although this thread is mostly about PVP, I'm hard pressed to understand the concern about hitting "one in a million" via 6-7-8 stacked blades every time you face any boss in any PvE world. There are much better, faster ways to kill the Jade Oni in Mooshu, than with (only) a cloud of blades. Given the very small HP buffer everyone has in Mooshu, it's probably not a great idea to spend 6-7-8 turns without shields or heals. Halfang farming with a 4 wizard team is down to a single turn. I just can't see the actual, practical need for sustaining a marginal increased damage amount with that 8th blade. I'm pretty sure that there is a target amount of time KI expects a wizard to take when they encounter a final world boss. Boss health points and damage abilities have been audited to reflect the targeted time/effort, as I understand it. This max damage thing in PvE seems to be a theoretical, but not a practical problem.

      In PvP, the health pool of "damage" schools - Storm in particular - is out balance with the damage that can be dealt by a supposed "tank" schools - Ice in particular. KI is attempting to re-assert a meaningful, "fair", sliding trade-off between high damage/low health to low damage/High health. This problem is 8-10 years in the making, so fixing it is not easy.

      There will be some pain. Lost damage on the 8th blade stacked seems minimal/acceptable for the L40-L100 worlds and the wizards traveling through them.
      I am not trying to argue here, but just trying to understand the logic behind this. I agree if someone is trying to do a one in mill in every turn, well your wasting time and resources. My concern is not so much in the first arch but the other two. A number of players have complained in how hard Azteca is, but it not till your well into it, you get a chance to open the sun school to get sharpen spell. Dragoon is not offer till you get to level 140, so stacking multiple sharpen blades is not as high as stated. As far as I know, players can only get sharpen blade through pets till you hit Level 70 you can get the Shanobi Sandals via Shanobi Bundle. Then its not till your 80 its offered in few other things usually by then your in Azetca.

      I no longer pvp, so I am not as concerned there as I am for those who pve. I get about playing smart, but if you take away one thing that has helped those with lower health, how much will that effect them over all?

      I know Jesse Strong explain one point of it, but I just want to understand complete here. This so call blade nerf is only being done in the PVP sector of the game and NOT in PVE? If this is the case, fine. However, if its not, then it really makes me wonder things in how it will effect the game play in the lower levels with the fact that some schools have lower health to began with then other and the rely on heavier hits to get them by vs. having higher health with lower hits. This seemed to be a good balance, to me.

      My next question is if they are making everything the same, how is the schools really going to be different other then just seeing the different spells, what will they be known as?

      - - - Updated - - -

      Quote Originally Posted by Oxnhorse View Post
      @Bailey Jade, I soloed most of Karamelle with Cody Soul Sword my Storm because I was told that it was easy. So I did, and found out it was pretty easy. And even with the multiple jewels that were available to me, I still had to have some help at times.

      As for Dragoon gear, I am not one that easily wins it, but I did craft my Storm helm and did manage to upgrade once the rock and roll rat of Karamelle.

      Now if I compare my gameplay to that of my Ice, he needed help through a large part of it. Mobs are relatively easy, but some of the bosses are in need of help through the game.

      Now if this is indeed about satisfying PVP over PVE gameplay, then KI might have a problem in the works because to slight part of the wizard community for the sake of pleasing the rest is favoritism at its worst.

      I don't do PVP since KI has stated from the beginning PVP ISN'T MANDATORY AND ISN'T REQUIRED, so many of us avoid it like the plague. If KI can nerf the blades in PVP without affecting PVE, then by all means nerf the Ice Blade.

      But, if they refuse to nerf the Life Blade and Death Blade which also gets +40, then Ice is being singled out for being accused of having an unfair advantage when I have clearly shown my Ice needs assistance, when my Storm needs the occasional help.

      Oxnhorse
      I get what your saying and being a long time player, I can easily solo things if I choose too. I just don't much any more being I have several accounts and I know the best effected way to play the game, but there are those who do not, and my concern lies in the balance of the lower worlds till you get to the higher levels.

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    3. #93
      JaredSpellFrost's Avatar
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      Thumbs down Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post
      I think there may be some confusion. Ice's buff's aren't being lowered below every other school's buffs. What is happening is that everyone's buffs are being standardized with blades at +35%(except balance which remains at 25%), traps at +30%, globals at +25% and spears at +20%. As life and death did not have damage globals prior to this update- they were granted them in this test realm.
      On paper it doesn't look like Ice's buffs are being lowered below everyone else's, but you have to consider that the Ice school was already weak to begin with. Equalizing everything will therefore disproportionately harm the more powerless schools, while disproportionately buffing the stronger schools.


      EDIT: The same logic applies to the stat caps, since they make high damage/resist schools/setups much less effective

      Last edited by JaredSpellFrost; 4-11-21 at 3:39:54 PM.

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    4. #94
      Bailey Jade's Avatar
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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post
      I think there may be some confusion. Ice's buff's aren't being lowered below every other school's buffs. What is happening is that everyone's buffs are being standardized with blades at +35%(except balance which remains at 25%), traps at +30%, globals at +25% and spears at +20%. As life and death did not have damage globals prior to this update- they were granted them in this test realm.

      The full Dev Diary can be found here: Test Realm Dev Diary. Below is a portion of the Dev Diary that explains the above concept in greater detail.
      Name:  Spring 2021 Test Realm- Core Buff Standardization.PNG
Views: 93
Size:  258.1 KB
      Eric, I am glad that your on. So, how is this going to balance. If KI is taking away a percent in a storm blade to make is same as lets say ice, where ice already has higher health in general. This is going to make things harder for those who play storm. Most gear and base stats on the different schools are different like ice having higher health because their hit is lower in general. A blade does help storm who already has the lower health to hit faster. Is KI going to balance health as well down the road? And if so, what is going to make the schools unique other then just the spells themselves?

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    5. #95
      Eric Stormbringer's Avatar
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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by Bailey Jade View Post
      Eric, I am glad that your on. So, how is this going to balance. If KI is taking away a percent in a storm blade to make is same as lets say ice, where ice already has higher health in general. This is going to make things harder for those who play storm. Most gear and base stats on the different schools are different like ice having higher health because their hit is lower in general. A blade does help storm who already has the lower health to hit faster. Is KI going to balance health as well down the road? And if so, what is going to make the schools unique other then just the spells themselves?
      Storm's blade used to be +30%. The blade standardization at +35% is a 5% increase for Storm's blade, no change for Fire and Myth and a 5% decrease for Life, Death and Ice.

      Final Bastion has a great article explaining why this actually enhances school identity by allowing the school's natural dpp advantages and disadvantages to remain consistent when buffing. You'll notice that shields already have this standardization built in- for example: Storm doesn't get a stronger shield than Ice to compensate for it's weaker defenses- that weaker defense is part of it's school identity and having the same shield as everyone else emphasizes that.

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    6. #96
      Bailey Jade's Avatar
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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post
      Storm's blade used to be +30%. The blade standardization at +35% is a 5% increase for Storm's blade, no change for Fire and Myth and a 5% decrease for Life, Death and Ice.

      Final Bastion has a great article explaining why this actually enhances school identity by allowing the school's natural dpp advantages and disadvantages to remain consistent when buffing. You'll notice that shields already have this standardization built in- for example: Storm doesn't get a stronger shield than Ice to compensate for it's weaker defenses- that weaker defense is part of it's school identity and having the same shield as everyone else emphasizes that.
      Oh, interesting! Now, I see where Jared is arguing more so. I remember soloing with ice through DS and it was a pain, back in the day, due to its already lower damage and no really good pet. I am sure that there are those who will feel the same way for both life and ice. Death there is no excuse, while they can hit they can heal. Over all Death is one of the EASIEST schools to solo. I found it to be the hardest with life and balance, but its not about me, but for players in general who quest with these schools.

      Well, I better get back to questing so I can get my girls through certain areas before this change LOL

      Now what about this damage cap?

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    7. #97
      Eric Stormbringer's Avatar
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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by Bailey Jade View Post
      Now what about this damage cap?
      Ratbeard explained the Damage/Resist limits here(Do note that a limit is different than a cap)

      Name:  Spring 2021 Test Realm- Ratbeard on Damage and Resist Limit.PNG
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      Last edited by Eric Stormbringer; 4-11-21 at 2:47:15 PM.

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    8. #98
      JaredSpellFrost's Avatar
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      Thumbs down Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by Bailey Jade View Post
      Now what about this damage cap?
      Basically, in PvE damage is capped at 150% and Resist at 101%. You can go over these limits, but each percent of damage becomes exponentially less effective if you do. In PvP the limits are 100% damage and 50% resist, with the absolute limits being 200% Damage in both metas and 125% and 70% in PvE and PvP respectfully.


      These uncalled for limits are applied to every school, which leaves little room for school identity. Storm can easily achieve 180% Damage, but is now essentially being capped at 150%. This in turn is a MASSIVE buff for Ice Wizards, since they were maxing out at ~140% Damage. But, my school is still taking a hit- universal Immunity may be impossible now, and the PvP resist cap is beyond a simple nerf.

      Jading in PvP is going to be a thing of the past now, and you know that when the Devs reconfigure the Arena so much that it kills of a legitimate strategy that they went too far. Obviously Jading in 1v1 matches should be prevented, but we can kiss support Wizards in team matches goodbye!

      This Resist cap also does not allow for Wizards to chase certain schools of resist- say I was fighting the Storm Titan and wanted to maximize my Storm resistance, to account for his Pierce. With this atrocious update, I can only achieve a total of 125% Storm Resist, which is hardly anything considering you can specialize with the Khrysalis crafted rings and all 3 school resist pet talents.


      TL,DR:
      These universal stat limits fail to account for school identity- Storm should always have the most damage, but this update neutralizes everyone. KingsIsle seems deluded into thinking that to balance everything, everyone must have the same stats, which simply isn't the case. Stat limits must be personalized for each school and still allow Players to chase certain stats, but always at the expense of others!



      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post
      Final Bastion has a great article explaining why this actually enhances school identity by allowing the school's natural dpp advantages and disadvantages to remain consistent when buffing.
      You shouldn't cite that Final Bastion article, as I've already explained it relies on improper data. It fails to account for Critical, Pierce, and the many more damage boosting spells Storm has compared to the Ice school. Plus, school identity is preserved much more thoroughly with the current system, which I explored in my mega-post.


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    9. #99
      JaredSpellFrost's Avatar
        JaredSpellFrost is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Arrow Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by JaredSpellFrost View Post
      1. 30% Blade
      2. 40% Sharpened Blade
      3. 40% Item Sharpened Blade
      4. 35% TC Blade
      5. 30% Item Blade
      6. 35% Item Blade
      7. 35% Elemental Blade
      8. 45% Sharpened Elemental Blade
      9. 40% TC Elemental Blade

      I wanted to add that this setup of Blades is more likely than hitting with two sharpened and 8 regular Blades, but not as realistic as it could be. It does not include Traps and Bubbles, but we can expect the slope of Storm's damage to be greater should we include such buffs, since Diviners have more damage boosting spells (Namely Windstorm).

      I would argue that my points and my graphs are still legitimate, however, since my data shows a general trend of Storm outdamaging Ice, and so we can logically assume the same holds true when a more natural setup of Blades/Traps/Bubbles is considered!



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    10. #100
      Oxnhorse's Avatar
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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post
      Storm's blade used to be +30%. The blade standardization at +35% is a 5% increase for Storm's blade, no change for Fire and Myth and a 5% decrease for Life, Death and Ice.

      Final Bastion has a great article explaining why this actually enhances school identity by allowing the school's natural dpp advantages and disadvantages to remain consistent when buffing. You'll notice that shields already have this standardization built in- for example: Storm doesn't get a stronger shield than Ice to compensate for it's weaker defenses- that weaker defense is part of it's school identity and having the same shield as everyone else emphasizes that.
      With KI wanting to destroy INDIVIDUALITY IN THE GAME TO MAKE EVERYONE EQUAL then please justify to me why we need 7 separate schools?

      My first character was Ice, primarily because I didn't know what else to pick in June 2009. Back then, and until 2011, my Ice Wyvern had a DoT spell attached to it. My thoughts, THAT'S KINDA WEIRD AND KINDA COOL! Then people complained Ice Wyvern gave Ice an unfair advantage against someone that probably didn't think out their deck, and got beat bad several times, and one day I looked at my Ice deck and wondered WHATS DIFFERENT WITH MY DECK?

      Someone else I was traveling with told me KI got rid of the DoT because other people complained ICE HAD AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE.

      Follow that up with one of my first times in the Bazaar after this occurred, and I was kinda amazed that Ice had the better deal in defense, not knowing THIS WAS HOW KI CREATED WIZARD101.

      So by nerfing the game since roughly 2010 or 2011, KI has been destroying the very game they say they are trying to maintain.

      Nerfing mobs and bosses are one thing, but honestly if the blades are gonna be destroyed from their original design so everyone can be the same, when are all the schools gonna be merged into one, so everyone has the same deck?

      Oxnhorse

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