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    Results 61 to 70 of 151
    1. #61
      Oxnhorse's Avatar
        Oxnhorse is offline Adept Wizard

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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      I took a look at the new, somewhat improved look with the AoE spells, and was happy to see that Rebirth was given a quicker return on heals instead of the 1x1, same with Forest Lord and Ice Giant.

      Phoenix made some rather interesting points on spells that I think should be mentioned, regardless of PVP or PVE; and that is choosing a secondary school.

      Originally with my Storm Cody Soul Soul Sword, I paired him with Life and ran him to Satyr; but there is a huge amount of wisdom in using training points to grab specific spells from several schools, and that's what he did.

      As we progress, it becomes apparent that KI doesn't frown on our selections, so many of us that aren't Ice will grab everything to Tower, use Life to Fairy or Satyr, Death to Feint, and grab the Balance blades (and/or traps) from Niles, Reshuffle from Colossus Boulevard and whatever else we think we need.

      But I have noticed that enemies like Belloq and Jabberwocky can be some of the most stressful in the game, so I adjust with putting 2 into Fire to gain the Fire Snake and Fire Elf, along with Fire Shield from Sabrina Greenstar and Quench from Mildred Farseer.

      As we progress in game, some prefer to buy the Treasure Cards instead of using Training Points, but I for one like the actual cards so I don't fizzle out.

      @Eric Stormbringer, I know the Karamelle schools cards are the newest ones on the block, but it seems to me the Grrrenadier should rise to an AoE status instead of being single use.

      Oxnhorse
      Last edited by Oxnhorse; 4-9-21 at 1:27:29 PM.

    2. #62
      JaredSpellFrost's Avatar
        JaredSpellFrost is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Arrow Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by FusionSun View Post
      I disagree with this. The Ice school should never match Storm's damage with the same number of blades; that completely ruins the purpose of Ice's dpp being lower than Storm's.
      Quote Originally Posted by JaredSpellFrost View Post
      Blade for Blade, Storm will always deal more damage than Ice, because they have greater base/percentage damage. Within a few rounds of combat, a Thaumaturge can stack enough buffs to match an unboosted Storm in damage- this is more than fair.
      If an Ice Wizard and a Diviner are tied for Blades, the Diviner should always deal more damage, due to higher critical, pierce, and percent damage (Variables Final Bastion did not account for). However, the game is intentionally designed so that an Ice Wizard can match an unboosted Storm ​in damage after several rounds of stacking buffs.

      But even if Ice does eventually somehow surpass Storm in damage when their buffs are equal, I say let them! If you're devoting that much extra time to stacking buffs, it's more than likely you're risking a knock out. Plus, this sort of patient assault is key to Ice's offensive capabilities. Storm centers around hitting hard and fast, but they fizzle out in prolonged combat, so it makes complete sense that their damage could drop off after 10+ rounds.


      "Yet like a bad case of athlete's foot you just kept coming back." -Cosmos
      “. . . with Persistence, Victory is assured.”




    3. #63
      masterofspelss's Avatar
        masterofspelss is offline Legendary Wizard

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        •  Azteca
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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Strong View Post
      Lol the crying from pvers is too much if they do that, we been there already. I know what you mean, this update affect pvp more yes but that doesnt mean its 100% for pvp. people arent depending on blades in pve anymore, times change
      I mean, PvE players aren’t complaining about doing too much damage. Most PvE players who say bosses are difficult is because of cheats, which has nothing to do with damage output. Literally nobody is saying “Man, my Scion of Myth does too much damage to this boss, he’s too difficult!” It would be more like “Wow, this boss is difficult because he one hit K.O’s me if I don’t use a certain spell at a certain time during a certain period where after using this specific spell he can be damaged, but only by using this spell first to trigger this cheat to allow it to happen”


      "I'm the Doctor"

    4. #64
      Oxnhorse's Avatar
        Oxnhorse is offline Adept Wizard

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        •  Timothy Pearlflower
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        •  Ice
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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      I'm all for a healthy amount of gameplay and such, but this thread has gone through just about every topic about the KI game, and it makes me wonder some times whether the staff of KI feel guilty about some of the schools having unrestrained power and then feel the need to tap it back some.

      For example when KI redid the graphics in all of Wizard City, it gave many players the concern that KI was somehow running out of ideas regarding gameplay. I also realize that KI doesn't want to rush ideas and spend the rest of the year tweaking content that ended up buggy from Test to Live.

      One thing here that hasn't been said or stated, is how exactly KI staff plan to "LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD". And it would seem really weird if this leveling out is meant to nerf blades, so a select few that were given the highest percentage of +40 (Ice, Life and Death) are seen as having an unfair advantage from the start of the games creation.

      If people wanted to complain about unfair advantages to really make KI turn heads, there is plenty that has not been mentioned here:

      Storm starts with an attack all enemies.

      Myth has around 4 minions by the time Earthquake is learned.

      Half of Life's deck is entirely built on healing.

      Ice gets more AoE than the rest/defensive stats.

      Death can steal health, so they don't need the use of a Life partner.

      Fire and Storm do almost the same amount of raw damage, that the other schools complain they have an unfair amount of damage.

      Balance doesn't get a prism (primarily because there isn't an opposing school).

      In around 11 to 12 years of gameplay, these are the major complaints against the 7 schools of Ravenwood, and honestly in the time that others have spent their time complaining about how unfair a school is, they should have been experimenting with how to make their own playing style could be utilized to their full advantage.

      Oxnhorse

    5. #65
      Eric Stormbringer's Avatar
        Eric Stormbringer is offline Wizard101 US Faculty

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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by JaredSpellFrost View Post
      If an Ice Wizard and a Diviner are tied for Blades, the Diviner should always deal more damage, due to higher critical, pierce, and percent damage (Variables Final Bastion did not account for). However, the game is intentionally designed so that an Ice Wizard can match an unboosted Storm ​in damage after several rounds of stacking buffs.

      But even if Ice does eventually somehow surpass Storm in damage when their buffs are equal, I say let them! If you're devoting that much extra time to stacking buffs, it's more than likely you're risking a knock out. Plus, this sort of patient assault is key to Ice's offensive capabilities. Storm centers around hitting hard and fast, but they fizzle out in prolonged combat, so it makes complete sense that their damage could drop off after 10+ rounds.

      I'm genuinely curious about how this logic extends. In your view, should a storm via an equal amount of shields be able to surpass Ice in defense? Since you believe it is fair for Ice to receive a 10% advantage on blades to compensate for their weaker offense- should storm receive a 10% advantage on shields to compensate for their lower defense?

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    6. #66
      Patrick FairyStalker's Avatar
        Patrick FairyStalker is offline Master Wizard
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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by masterofspelss View Post
      A mob doesn't care if you're overpowered or not. If KI gave one school a 100,000 base damage hit for 2 pips, the mobs wouldn't care, but players would. Should the solution be, then, to give all schools a 2 pip ~10,000 damage hit? Of course not. The KI devs care about school balancing and they are thinking on the margin (blade-stacking is an essential part of it). Nerfs are a side effect of balancing. Not every update will/should be a buff.
      So then you agree. Reducing Life/Death/Ice's blades to 35% was purely for PvP...
      Nah, I didn't say nor mean that. I deliberately detached PvP from my explanations.

      Should we give ice a 100,000 damage, 2 pip hit to make ice more playable? After all, the mobs won't care!

      If your entire stance is "AI doesn't care about overpowered schools, therefore, it's PvP's fault," then this is beyond rational discussion. When one school is better than another even in the PvE context, then it should be balanced, simply for gaming integrity.
      Last edited by Patrick FairyStalker; 4-9-21 at 5:38:13 PM.

    7. #67
      JaredSpellFrost's Avatar
        JaredSpellFrost is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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        •  Ice
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      Arrow Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post
      I'm genuinely curious about how this logic extends. In your view, should a storm via an equal amount of shields be able to surpass Ice in defense? Since you believe it is fair for Ice to receive a 10% advantage on blades to compensate for their weaker offense- should storm receive a 10% advantage on shields to compensate for their lower defense?
      No, of course not! Storm already has ample ​compensation for it's minimal defenses, via it's overwhelming offensive capabilities. Sure, it makes for a riskier and more skilled playthrough, but it's largely balanced. Ice has compensation for their low damage by owning the best Blades, Traps, and Bubbles, which is fair. What isn't equitable, however, is buffing the school with the greatest offensive presence at the cost of the weakest hitting school!

      Storm is about burst damage, rather than prolonging the battle for surer hits which is Ice's area of expertise. It makes sense that past 10+ Blades that patience would pay off for Ice! But regardless of what this may look like on a graph, the variables of percentile damage, Critical, and Pierce when included will always place Storm in the lead, no matter how many Blades a Thaumaturge can accumulate.


      "Yet like a bad case of athlete's foot you just kept coming back." -Cosmos
      “. . . with Persistence, Victory is assured.”




    8. #68
      FrostCat's Avatar
        FrostCat is offline Novice Wizard

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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post
      I'm genuinely curious about how this logic extends. In your view, should a storm via an equal amount of shields be able to surpass Ice in defense? Since you believe it is fair for Ice to receive a 10% advantage on blades to compensate for their weaker offense- should storm receive a 10% advantage on shields to compensate for their lower defense?
      I honestly think some variation to the shields would be worth looking into. I honestly think part of the problem is that in pve shields are irrelevant so ice has no reason to play into their strengths of tanking. So if ice had more utility in terms of shields or even absorbs but weaker shields it might make school identity more important. I think a great example of this is the taunt rework and the Karamelle spells which sorta force ice to tank to deal damage. Obviously with shields being such a core mechanic there would be a bunch of blowback to making changes but today shields really don't play like intended anyway. Also I don't pvp but I assume balancing a change like that for both pve and pvp would be super tough.

    9. #69
      Patrick FairyStalker's Avatar
        Patrick FairyStalker is offline Master Wizard
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      Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      Quote Originally Posted by JaredSpellFrost View Post
      No, of course not! Storm already has ample ​compensation for it's minimal defenses, via it's overwhelming offensive capabilities. Sure, it makes for a riskier and more skilled playthrough, but it's largely balanced. Ice has compensation for their low damage by owning the best Blades, Traps, and Bubbles, which is fair. What isn't equitable, however, is buffing the school with the greatest offensive presence at the cost of the weakest hitting school!

      Storm is about burst damage, rather than prolonging the battle for surer hits which is Ice's area of expertise. It makes sense that past 10+ Blades that patience would pay off for Ice! But regardless of what this may look like on a graph, the variables of percentile damage, Critical, and Pierce when included will always place Storm in the lead, no matter how many Blades a Thaumaturge can accumulate.

      This is a double standard that exposes personal bias rather than being equitable. This is because an equal and opposite argument can be made:

      Ice already has ample compensation for its minimal offenses, via its overwhelming defensive capabilities. Sure, it makes for a slower and more methodical playthrough, but it's largely balanced. Storm has compensation for their low defense by owning the best hits, which is fair. What isn't equitable, however, is giving the school which is supposed to be defensive the best blade!

      Ice is about defense, rather than outpacing the offensive school, which is Storm's area of expertise. It makes sense for a storm that is able to strategically survive to get 10+ blades to pay off!
      See this? We could go in circles all day.

      But regardless of what this may look like on a graph, the variables of percentile damage, Critical, and Pierce when included will always place Storm in the lead, no matter how many Blades a Thaumaturge can accumulate.
      Graphs matter because without them, we will just keep going in circles. Graphs will show that this statement is untrue. Even a storm with 170% damage and higher base damage will get outpaced by an ice by 7 blades. I'm using the 4 pip shadow hits with a +300 enchant.



      So theoretically, if a boss has 30k+ health (particularly at 45k+), and both schools go full offense by blading every single round for 7+ turns, the ice will be able to beat the boss first. This is a fundamental problem, because it's much easier for an ice to get 7+ blades and survive 7+ rounds. In these scenarios, there is no advantage or niche for storm, because a full offense ice just outpaced a full offense storm.

      The graph above is actually an underestimate for ice as well. Ices can reach 140%+ damage, lowering the requirement to just 5 rounds of blades. I only put 100% in my graph for ice damage.
      Last edited by Patrick FairyStalker; 4-9-21 at 6:38:14 PM.

    10. #70
      JaredSpellFrost's Avatar
        JaredSpellFrost is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Lightbulb Re: Test Realm is open! "Spring 2021 Update"

      @Patrick FairyStalker

      Like I said with the Final Bastion equations, they are inherently flawed because you're not taking Pierce, Critical, base and percentage damage into account. All of these factors must be considered when constructing a graph, otherwise you'll have skewed data. Pierce can be considered an indirect damage boost (Of which Storm has buckets and Ice but mere drops), and critical is more effective for Diviners. Ignoring these key factors will produce misleading data that shouldn't be considered in this conversation.



      Quote Originally Posted by Patrick FairyStalker View Post
      This is a double standard that exposes personal bias rather than being equitable.
      You seem misinformed on the identity of the Ice school. On the official site, Thaumaturges are described as excelling in "persistence, slow but steady progression" that is befitting of their arctic theme. Bladestacking is especially crucial to the Ice School, as it is essentially required to ensure a damaging hit, so it makes sense that their damage would curve above Storm's- as a reward for waiting 10+ rounds in slow combat.


      This isn't personal bias when it's literally written on the site and when the game was designed this way! I'm not against pushing Ice's damage curve below that of Storm's, but it must be done in a way that doesn't affect our buffs, because that will only shove our damage down even lower when it's already behind Storm.

      Perhaps our damage could be artificially reduced past that threshold where we outpace Storm, as this would not harm icy hitters with less blades. The game could run a calculation where it checks if you've hit with ~10+ Blades, and, if so, your damage output would be altered to always be below that of a Storm hitting with ~10+ Blades! I do understand how a Thamaturge inflicting greater damage than a Diviner can be problematic, and I'm perfectly fine with fixing that so long as such a nerf is appropriately scaled.



      Quote Originally Posted by Patrick FairyStalker View Post
      So theoretically, if a boss has 30k+ health (particularly at 45k+), and both schools go full offense by blading every single round for 7+ turns, the ice will be able to beat the boss first. This is a fundamental problem, because it's much easier for an ice to get 7+ blades and survive 7+ rounds. In these scenarios, there is no advantage or niche for storm, because a full offense ice just outpaced a full offense storm.
      Any Diviner worth their alchemical salt should be able to kill a boss with 30k health before the 7 round marker.. And again, I'll remind you that Storm has greater critical, pierce, and damage so it should be child's play to defeat such an enemy before a Thaumaturge can outpace them. Of course, in longer, more drawn out battles like Storm Titan and Fellspawn, it may be wiser to have an Ice hit, since hours long battles are their specialty.



      Spoiler
      Every school has/needs their strengths and weaknesses. Ice performs well in battles where persistence is a necessity, while Storm excels in fast paced duels. Instead of nerfing Ice's intentional capabilities for these rare battles, we should look at ways to support Storm in such fights. I'm not saying to buff their defenses directly, but seeing how Storm had a hand in spawning the Life and Death school perhaps they deserve some utility relating to staying alive that compliments their playstyle!
      Last edited by JaredSpellFrost; 4-9-21 at 7:27:46 PM.

      "Yet like a bad case of athlete's foot you just kept coming back." -Cosmos
      “. . . with Persistence, Victory is assured.”




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