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    1. #1
      JaredSpellFrost's Avatar
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      Exclamation Enough Corporate Pride, KI: We Need Action!

      corporate pride / rainbow capitalism:

      -When companies embrace surface level LBGTQI+ branding as a way to make a profit and gaslight the public into believing this company is actually accepting/inclusive.



      As you can likely guess from the title of this post, I'm here to say that KingsIsle is guilty of rainbow capitalism and how they can truly commit to inclusistivty. First of all, I should define the problem: Wizard101 has existed for 13 and a half years but despite this, there are zero LBGTQI+ characters in the entire game. Pirate101 has existed for 9 and a half years but despite this, there are zero LBGTQI+ characters in the entire game.
      There most certainly is an oversaturating of straight characters though, many of which are given key roles in the story. Raven and Spider, Mailisatire and Sylvia, Sultana Sharzad, Odysseus, Gortez, the countless kings+queens of Monquista, the Moomori wedding, the Grand Tourney Gauntlet, the chivalrous knights of Avalon, etc. etc.

      All of these cishet characters are shoved down the queer community's throats, and it's exhausting. I list all of these characters to illustrate the fact that there is a clear imbalance of representation in both games, and that we are deserving of queer characters. And yes, I know some of you may point to Burdie and Catbeard, but they are just stereotypes wrapped up in an ambiguous trench coat.



      Getting back to corporate pride, I find it difficult to swallow that KingsIsle is truly accepting of queer folk like me when they would rather focus on monetizing Pride month instead of letting us change our Wizard's names, change our Wizard's gender, adding a genderqueer option for Wizards, adding LBGTQI+ characters, and making substantial donations to queer charities.
      This is all not to say that I don't appreciate the steps they've taken- I do, but to an extent. Essentially, I trust KI as far as I can throw them- as should we all when corporations brush off their rainbow logos for 1/12th of the year. And I say this because I know cishet people will call me 'ungrateful' and 'demanding' for requesting these breadcrumbs of inclusistivty.



      If you're wondering what you can do to help, then you're asking the right questions! First of all, don't buy any of the rainbow merch KI creates, even if it is "for charity." The simple truth is that as a multimillion dollar corporation, KingsIsle really isn't in any position to ask us for donations. If you wish to donate, that's great! Just give to these nonprofits directly so that KingsIsle doesn't get a tax write-off. Planned Parenthood, The Trevor Project, and GLAAD are all upstanding organizations deserving of your contributions.


      And remember to use your voice too! Help us tell KingsIsle that they NEED to prioritize real representation. We're 13 years overdue for LBGTQI+ characters and being able to say the words, it's about time that KingsIsle stopped living in the corporate past and moved on to an inclusive future.




      Here's a quick QnA because I know that cishet people will also ask this:


      "But it's not appropriate for kids!"
      Just like cishet relationships, queer characters/relationships can be platonic too. Your assumption that we are inherently explicit is frankly homophobic, and only serves to reveal your internalized biases.



      "It's just a kids game, this doesn't matter."
      Representation makes a real difference though, and this is something cishet people typically take for granted. Being able to relate to a character on screen can be magical, and in this case, it helps normalize the queer community. Diversity is proven to increase tolerance, not to mention it's only fair that we receive some representation in a game completely devoid of it.
      I know that this video doesn't pertain to the matter of LBGTQI+ representation, but I feel like it's a great visualization of how beautiful representation can be:



      "But we aren't comfortable with this!"
      If you aren't comfortable with LBGTQI+ people, then that's your hateful problem to deal with, not ours. We shouldn't be punished because you feel 'uncomfortable' when confronted with our existence. Because honey, we feel 'uncomfortable' living in a cisnormative society that spins this utter lack of representation as normal so don't complain to us about comfort.
      @Sparck @Eric Stormbringer @Ratbeard @Arthur Wethersfield @Kyle IceWielder @Vanessa Mythdust
      Last edited by Willowdreamer; 6-2-22 at 7:38:07 AM. Reason: asterisks, sarcastic name use

      "Yet like a bad case of athlete's foot you just kept coming back." -Cosmos
      “. . . with Persistence, Victory is assured.”




    2. #2
      JaredSpellFrost's Avatar
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      Thumbs up Re: Enough Corporate Pride, KI: We Need Action!

      Thank you for approving this post @Willowdreamer! I appreciate the fact that Central is letting us have these important conversations, thanks!



      "Yet like a bad case of athlete's foot you just kept coming back." -Cosmos
      “. . . with Persistence, Victory is assured.”




    3. #3
      An81angel's Avatar
        An81angel is offline Initiate Wizard

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      Re: Enough Corporate Pride, KI: We Need Action!

      I agree, making a quick buck off of the LGB+'s hard work at acceptance is wrong.
      I agree, representation is a good thing for society in general.


      However, not everything in this world needs to have some sort of representation for the LGB+, or even religion for that matter. Not every book, movie, tv show, game, song, etc. needs to (or should be expected to) have pride representation. Just because you want representation doesn't mean you should expect it in everything. I'm really sad that inclusivity has become a demand that attacks everything. Honestly, I think there should be LESS to do with relationships in this game. I don't think romantic interests should be highlighted often in a child's game about magic and fantasy, let alone forced into the story to placate someone that feels marginalized. Especially when Representation for the LGB+ is pretty much everywhere else.

      Why does this game NEED representation for the LGB+?
      What will adding representation do to the plot of the game?
      How will adding representation make the game fun for Everyone else that is not LGB+?
      Did you have fun at any time playing W101/P101 without LGB+ representation?
      Can you still have fun playing W101/P101 without representation for LGB+?

      If you only WANT an LGB+ storyline for your personal feelings, then aren't you just pushing your views on others against their will and being less inclusive to the world and wizard community as a whole. Do you really want a random quest thrown into the game as an afterthought? Will you feel included with a side quest knowing that it (or by proxy the LGB+ community) could easily get ignored? If they do add in a questline that adds representation, and you don't think it expresses your community well or enough, will you complain until it gets changed to suit your needs? Would you be happy with one quest, or would you beg for more? If you want a game like w101 to exist with LGB+ representation, make it yourself. Don't attack a company until they give into your demands on your personal ideology. Would you be okay with people on the opposite end complaining that there IS representation added to the game? Will a political fight over representation make you want to play the game more or less?

      I have no problem with some representation in the game. However, taking IRL political issues and smashing them in the face of players trying to escape into a fun, sweet, innocent, family friendly, game just seems out of place. And unnecessary. This game is doing everything it can NOT to die right now. I think forcing this issue will just alienate a huge player base and finally kill the game.

      I'm sure many people will disagree with me, and that's ok. I do understand why you want to be represented in society as a whole. I just don't think it HAS to be here in this game to make this game a fun, and friendly adventure. I am allowed to have an open, honest discussion on this topic just the same as you. Even if my views are the opposite of yours.

      R.I.P. Uncle Darren (gay/aids) 2021

      ::: WooHoo! Dungeon Party! :::

    4. #4
      Charles Lifetamer's Avatar
        Charles Lifetamer is offline Magus Wizard

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      Great points here. I just have a few comments about representation in W101.

      I would love to see more ****Q+ representation in W101. Honestly, not even exclusive to ****Q+ representation, just more representation of people of all sorts of ethnic and cultural backgrounds. I'm just concerned about tokenization. A single, token representative of a community doesn't do the community any favors, and I read that as pandering rather than genuine concern about a community. Abner K. Doodle comes to mind. I love that a Black wizard in a wheelchair is so visible in every world. But what good does it do if he's the only one? Representation has to be actual representation—not necessarily a majority, even, but it ought to be significant enough for people to feel more seen and visible. Which is why I generally prefer options that let the player express their identity.

      Of course, the social climate 13 years ago, or even 5 years ago, wasn't as accepting of ****Q+ people as today. It's never "the wrong time" or "too early" to have decent representation, but I think that if KI is going to go all out and do the corporate pride schtick, they really should take it seriously and actually have decent representation. It's not like KI is an org that exclusively has cishet people—there's a reasonable amount of diversity within the company, so why not the game?

      To your point about changing names, gender, etc... I honestly think that having more gender-neutral names or even just going fully gender-neutral would be great. The whole deal in the character creation interface where you choose either "boy" or "girl" and then you're given a pre-set list of names... something about it just doesn't sit right with me. I don't particularly care about dismantling the whole thing, but it would be great to have a lot more gender-expansive options. Being restricted to traditionally "boy" names or "girl" names doesn't really do KI any favors when they claim they want to be more ****Q+ friendly.

      I'm pretty happy with the way KI has gone in terms of representation, but there's always a lot more work to do and so much to build off of to make Wiz a much more ****Q friendly game. Thanks for this post, it's important to have discussions about these things and seeing others raising questions about how KI is approaching pride month gives me some reassurance that I'm not the only person who raised an eyebrow at that blog post.

      Quote Originally Posted by An81angel View Post
      I agree, making a quick buck off of the LGB+'s hard work at acceptance is wrong.
      I agree, representation is a good thing for society in general.


      However, not everything in this world needs to have some sort of representation for the LGB+, or even religion for that matter. Not every book, movie, tv show, game, song, etc. needs to (or should be expected to) have pride representation. Just because you want representation doesn't mean you should expect it in everything. I'm really sad that inclusivity has become a demand that attacks everything. Honestly, I think there should be LESS to do with relationships in this game. I don't think romantic interests should be highlighted often in a child's game about magic and fantasy, let alone forced into the story to placate someone that feels marginalized. Especially when Representation for the LGB+ is pretty much everywhere else.

      Why does this game NEED representation for the LGB+?
      What will adding representation do to the plot of the game?
      How will adding representation make the game fun for Everyone else that is not LGB+?
      Did you have fun at any time playing W101/P101 without LGB+ representation?
      Can you still have fun playing W101/P101 without representation for LGB+?

      If you only WANT an LGB+ storyline for your personal feelings, then aren't you just pushing your views on others against their will and being less inclusive to the world and wizard community as a whole. Do you really want a random quest thrown into the game as an afterthought? Will you feel included with a side quest knowing that it (or by proxy the LGB+ community) could easily get ignored? If they do add in a questline that adds representation, and you don't think it expresses your community well or enough, will you complain until it gets changed to suit your needs? Would you be happy with one quest, or would you beg for more? If you want a game like w101 to exist with LGB+ representation, make it yourself. Don't attack a company until they give into your demands on your personal ideology. Would you be okay with people on the opposite end complaining that there IS representation added to the game? Will a political fight over representation make you want to play the game more or less?

      I have no problem with some representation in the game. However, taking IRL political issues and smashing them in the face of players trying to escape into a fun, sweet, innocent, family friendly, game just seems out of place. And unnecessary. This game is doing everything it can NOT to die right now. I think forcing this issue will just alienate a huge player base and finally kill the game.

      I'm sure many people will disagree with me, and that's ok. I do understand why you want to be represented in society as a whole. I just don't think it HAS to be here in this game to make this game a fun, and friendly adventure. I am allowed to have an open, honest discussion on this topic just the same as you. Even if my views are the opposite of yours.

      R.I.P. Uncle Darren (gay/aids) 2021
      I'd like to respond to this post point by point.

      No, not everything has to represent everyone. That's not reasonable, that's not feasible, and that's not what anyone wants either. Let's be clear—the audience of the game is no longer majority under-13. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that having romantic relationships (such as Raven & Spider) is totally fine. When you say "forced into the story," that's also exactly what we don't want as well. I don't want anything to be forced. It's unnatural, it's pandering, and it's useless. That said, representation can be simple, straightforward, and not in-your-face. The best forms of representation in media and games, in my experience, don't make it a point to shove it in your face that they're representing (xyz marginalized group). And the problem is, we aren't represented everywhere, not by a long shot, which is why it's something worth asking for.

      The questions you follow with are questions that have been asked about every form of representation. Why does there need to be a movie about (xyz)? Because it makes a certain group feel seen and appreciated and it is not a Herculean effort to add in a little nod to that certain group. Again, not asking for anything in-your-face.

      Representation SHOULDN'T do anything to the plot of the game. It should integrate itself seamlessly and work even if it wasn't "representation." The point is visibility, not an actual change to the plot.

      Just as I can have fun with the game regardless of representation, I'm sure that anyone else can have fun with the game regardless of representation. It is not a dire, pressing issue that needs to be addressed for me. It won't make or break my relationship with Wiz. It's just a "nice to have, I would really appreciate this" type of thing.

      To your point about the approaches with respect to representation, I think that it's something that KI should reflect on. One quest would be fine, but not as an afterthought. Having a side questline for it would be great. Having a main questline for it would also be great. Also, this idea that my identity, or ANY identity is some sort of "ideology" or a "political issue" is... certainly an idea. I'm going to reserve my judgement on that.

      Unfortunately, I cannot help but respectfully disagree with you on most points in this post, and I hope that there can be a solution that satisfies both of our opinions. Some of your characterizations of representation are, in my view, inaccurate and disappointing, but you are wholly entitled to them. I am sorry that this is the way you feel about representation, and I do hope that your opinion shifts in the future.
      Last edited by Willowdreamer; 6-3-22 at 6:18:59 AM. Reason: double posted

    5. #5
      Cosmos's Avatar
        Cosmos is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Re: Enough Corporate Pride, KI: We Need Action!

      Quote Originally Posted by An81angel View Post
      I agree, making a quick buck off of the LGB+'s hard work at acceptance is wrong.
      I agree, representation is a good thing for society in general.


      However, not everything in this world needs to have some sort of representation for the LGB+, or even religion for that matter. Not every book, movie, tv show, game, song, etc. needs to (or should be expected to) have pride representation. Just because you want representation doesn't mean you should expect it in everything. I'm really sad that inclusivity has become a demand that attacks everything. Honestly, I think there should be LESS to do with relationships in this game. I don't think romantic interests should be highlighted often in a child's game about magic and fantasy, let alone forced into the story to placate someone that feels marginalized. Especially when Representation for the LGB+ is pretty much everywhere else.

      Why does this game NEED representation for the LGB+?
      What will adding representation do to the plot of the game?
      How will adding representation make the game fun for Everyone else that is not LGB+?
      Did you have fun at any time playing W101/P101 without LGB+ representation?
      Can you still have fun playing W101/P101 without representation for LGB+?

      If you only WANT an LGB+ storyline for your personal feelings, then aren't you just pushing your views on others against their will and being less inclusive to the world and wizard community as a whole. Do you really want a random quest thrown into the game as an afterthought? Will you feel included with a side quest knowing that it (or by proxy the LGB+ community) could easily get ignored? If they do add in a questline that adds representation, and you don't think it expresses your community well or enough, will you complain until it gets changed to suit your needs? Would you be happy with one quest, or would you beg for more? If you want a game like w101 to exist with LGB+ representation, make it yourself. Don't attack a company until they give into your demands on your personal ideology. Would you be okay with people on the opposite end complaining that there IS representation added to the game? Will a political fight over representation make you want to play the game more or less?

      I have no problem with some representation in the game. However, taking IRL political issues and smashing them in the face of players trying to escape into a fun, sweet, innocent, family friendly, game just seems out of place. And unnecessary. This game is doing everything it can NOT to die right now. I think forcing this issue will just alienate a huge player base and finally kill the game.

      I'm sure many people will disagree with me, and that's ok. I do understand why you want to be represented in society as a whole. I just don't think it HAS to be here in this game to make this game a fun, and friendly adventure. I am allowed to have an open, honest discussion on this topic just the same as you. Even if my views are the opposite of yours.

      R.I.P. Uncle Darren (gay/aids) 2021
      Can I kiss you? That was so much better than the lengthy, rambling essays that I usually write. I especially liked this line:

      I'm really sad that inclusivity has become a demand that attacks everything.
      It makes me really sad too. If five years ago KI had, unprompted, created a Valentine's Day side quest about assisting a female student create a present for a girl she had a crush on or something silly like that, I would have thought: "Wow. That was really sweet."

      Now with KI wading into wedge issues like it's no biggie and the community applying pressure to take political stances, it makes everything feel... fake. Inorganic. Like the goals here aren't acceptance or normalization but something more self-centered.



      On the topic of representation, I think you know my opinion already, Jared. So instead I'll just share one particularly funny story that I don't think I've shared before (if Willow will allow).

      About three years ago (pre-pandemic that is, lol) I was attending a gathering of about 100 people made up from a whole host of political campaigns across the Midwest. It was a great time. I got to talk to a bunch of different people about their thoughts on different issues and the way that they would go about fixing them. About 30 minutes after the start of the event, me and a friend walked over to another one of the various candidate tables set up in this small convention space. We greet the organizers and canvassers that were there, shake a few hands and nod a few heads. The usual.

      For a minute or two we talk policy with them. Then I let rip a question that haunts me to this day: "So what specifically about [this candidate] and [their] campaign gets you most excited?"

      "Oh, well, I think it'll just be so nice to finally have someone in office that looks like me, y'know?"

      My god. My friend later told me that I just silently stared at that organizer like an idiot for 10 whole seconds after. My brain would just not compute that sentence. It was like a blue screen IRL. Of all the pressing issues facing the nation that was what this person was concerned about most?

      Omg bro, I can't.
      Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory - Machiavelli // I also write my own stuff ~

    6. #6
      Pegasus Unbound's Avatar
        Pegasus Unbound is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Cool Re: Enough Corporate Pride, KI: We Need Action!

      I wasn't going to say anything, but all things considered I must address a few things. I was never in the closet, my family found out when I was 12 and forced me out of the house (I had no family contact after that until almost 40 years later when she was dying of cancer and wanted to mend the fence with me). That was 1972 when the main rights fights were really getting started; I was there to see the bashing, the murders inspired and encouraged by stars (Anita Bryant) and politicians (Senator Hiyakawa), when HIV was discovered and our people were blamed and even almost were sent to live in isolation on an island like the lepers of Kalauapapa island in Hawaii (Yes, that came close to being a reality but they could not agree on how to do it or what island to use), I was there to hold the hand of an effeminate 11 year old boys' cold dead hand who would rather die than deal with his family rejection and so much more that most of the current generation has zero knowledge about because in their rage they fail to learn from the past. I say this so you will understand I have EXTENSIVE first hand experience at the complete evolution of the battle for "Pride" before it was even called that.

      The first thing is that I understand your anger and frustration, but acting out of anger and frustration very rarely turns out good or has good results. This was proved by the militant rights groups that cause more fear of Gays than ever before and fueled the "enemy" with ammunition to use against us.

      Second, there is a time and place for everything...or as they say today "read the room". Just as I would never have publicly tried to have physical relations in a park front of children (Although the straight population tends to do it ALL the time) out of respect and dignity, I would also never try to force the blatant issue down the throats of a family friendly game. Yes, we can "hold hands" or hug without the need for getting "hot and heavy". This same concept must be respected in any area where children are present; as such we can tone it down and give respect to others...the same respect we are asking for.

      Third, KI is NOT doing this out of corporate greed, they have taken a careful and cautious approach and deserve to be respected for it. As an example, they now have KI Pride clothes available. Before you say they are just making money, stop and look closely at the truth. All the proceeds are being donated to a Pride supporting organization. So please stop taking your anger out on the wrong example, instead recognize that each year they are stepping out more and more into the light; a light that starts to reach out and clear the fears and myths of the past that the thousands of players have learned...including the younger generation. Yes there are some companies guilty of what you are saying and that is sad but a part of the reality we must accept before we find a solution to it; but don't attack the companies like KI who are genuinely trying to adapt and make a difference without causing "culture" shock and the damage that come from such shock.

      Fourth, as far as KI goes remember that their own employees who are part of the very wide "Pride" community have been given a forum to openly express themselves and have supported those same employees 1,000%...just ask @Sparck

      One of the most common lies is the concept that we are dangerous and can't possibly contribute to society. Prove them wrong, volunteer as openly gay (or whatever term you prefer) for programs that have absolutely NOTHING to do with "Pride" and show them we do have value to the society. How can you ever expect to be part of a society you do nothing to support or help? It is time to stop playing their game and giving them "examples" of why we should be feared...are you ready to make that HUGE step?

      As I said, own your rage and harness it to do positive things to show the world...

      "We're here, We're Queer" BUT we also have so much to offer without ANY need to fear us.

      Pride needs to go beyond the current concept, it needs to be all inclusive regardless of your self id, preferences or anything else. Pride must come to mean total acceptance of who we are first, then who others are and to love and respect each other no matter what. Did you know that the term Gay came about originally to identify the stage when a person of any 'preference" went beyond the primary physical focus on who did what in bed with who and instead shifted the focus to one of the heart and soul going far beyond the physical attractions. This is what we must do with Pride in all the wonderful forms and types of people in this crazy world.

      Lastly, be honest and admit that within each and every group there is discrimination, even against itself. In the Gay world, when you reach a certain age you become "nasty" and even making friends can become impossible because your not young and handsome/pretty anymore, then there is the issue of Gay race or body image and competition for that last minute "date", and of course there are the people with various disabilities; so lets be real, look in the mirror and deal with our own issues as we deal with all the rest.

      Sorry to ever sound "preachy" but if we EVER expect to be respected, WE must be the ones to set the examples first by being honest with ourselves and our own shortcomings. The truth is always difficult, but once embraced and respected IT will set you free.
      Last edited by Willowdreamer; 6-3-22 at 6:33:39 AM. Reason: removed comment directing members off-site, political commentary


    7. #7
      JaredSpellFrost's Avatar
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      Exclamation Re: Enough Corporate Pride, KI: We Need Action!

      Quote Originally Posted by An81angel View Post
      However, not everything in this world needs to have some sort of representation for the LGB+, or even religion for that matter. Not every book, movie, tv show, game, song, etc. needs to (or should be expected to) have pride representation. Just because you want representation doesn't mean you should expect it in everything. I'm really sad that inclusivity has become a demand that attacks everything. Honestly, I think there should be LESS to do with relationships in this game. I don't think romantic interests should be highlighted often in a child's game about magic and fantasy, let alone forced into the story to placate someone that feels marginalized. Especially when Representation for the LGB+ is pretty much everywhere else.
      If cishet people are represented, then it is only fair that we are as well. Otherwise, that'd literally be discrimination. And coming from an LGB+ (Restricting the acronym so the auto censor doesn't remove my reply) person, we really aren't represented "pretty much everywhere else". Our culture is still inundated with cishet dominance, which can make the smallest breadcrumbs of LGB+ representation appear to be enough.

      Also, if you don't want "romantic interests" in Wizard101, then say goodbye to the Spider/Raven and Mailistaire/Sylvia plot. Relationships can and do exist in kids games, so we shouldn't go about dismantling all of the cishet characters in both games to avoid a homophobic double standard.


      Also, inclusistivty has to be a demand. Acting nicely in a system that is intentionally designed to silence us won't exactly work out.. FYI, Stonewall was a riot for a reason.




      Quote Originally Posted by An81angel View Post
      Why does this game NEED representation for the LGB+? What will adding representation do to the plot of the game? How will adding representation make the game fun for Everyone else that is not LGB+? Did you have fun at any time playing W101/P101 without LGB+ representation? Can you still have fun playing W101/P101 without representation for LGB+?
      This game needs LGB+ representation because it's straight up discriminatory not to.

      Not much, and that's OK. Characters could just casually say that their boyfriend will appreciate these roses you got for them instead of saying girlfriend, there doesn't need to be a sticking point in the plot about a character's struggle against trans/homophobia.

      Now that sounds a bit selfish to me. The point of diversity shouldn't be to appease those with privilege, the point should be to make marginalized communities seen.

      Again, the issue is not whether we can have fun playing an exclusive game, the problem is that LGB+ people are hurt by this lack of inclusion.

      Now that I'm aware of these problems, I can't really enjoy myself to the fullest knowing I'm playing a game manufactured by an exclusionary company.




      Quote Originally Posted by An81angel View Post
      If you only WANT an LGB+ storyline for your personal feelings, then aren't you just pushing your views on others against their will and being less inclusive to the world and wizard community as a whole. Do you really want a random quest thrown into the game as an afterthought? Will you feel included with a side quest knowing that it (or by proxy the LGB+ community) could easily get ignored? If they do add in a questline that adds representation, and you don't think it expresses your community well or enough, will you complain until it gets changed to suit your needs? Would you be happy with one quest, or would you beg for more? If you want a game like w101 to exist with LGB+ representation, make it yourself. Don't attack a company until they give into your demands on your personal ideology. Would you be okay with people on the opposite end complaining that there IS representation added to the game? Will a political fight over representation make you want to play the game more or less?
      This isn't just about me, and it never has been. The fight for diversity is ongoing and it isn't about appeasing one person in particular. And if you want to talk about "views"* being pushed onto people, let's discuss the BAJILLION cishet characters in both games who are forcefully pushed onto everyone against their will. Do you see how that's hypocritical of you to say that?


      And tell me, how exactly is it "less inclusive" to literally be inclusive of LGB+ people? Let it be known, we are not asking to take anything away- I'm not the one out here calling for all "romantic interests" to be removed from both games.
      Cishet people lose nothing when LGB+ people are represented.
      And while I would appreciate small mentions of LGB+ characters in side quests, we are certainly deserving of having a new main character like Mellori come out too. Also, I am 100% against KI going back and retconning characters to be LGB+, as that's incredibly performative and wrong.


      Tell me, why should the burden of bare minimum representation fall on me? It's funny how I say "Here is [problem]", but your response is just "Ignore [problem], let the [problem] continue to exist, and make your own environment devoid of [problem]". KingsIsle is literally exclusionary, so how can you be so OK with that to tell me that I should take up the impossible task of making my own accepting game??
      And people who complain about diversity are, simple put, trans/homophobes. I won't care how much they complain, I'll be able to enjoy representation no matter how loud their tantrums are.




      Quote Originally Posted by An81angel View Post
      II have no problem with some representation in the game. However, taking IRL political issues and smashing them in the face of players trying to escape into a fun, sweet, innocent, family friendly, game just seems out of place. And unnecessary. This game is doing everything it can NOT to die right now. I think forcing this issue will just alienate a huge player base and finally kill the game.
      Our identities are not political!!! Who we are, who we love, this is not political. The only people who politicize this do so in an attempt to strip our rights away. And your presumption that we are not appropriate for a family friendly game is incredibly homophobic. I mean, what makes the countless straight characters and their relationships OK but not an LGB+ character, hm?
      And if homophobes are isolated because of representation, then so be it. That's their problem, not ours.




      Quote Originally Posted by An81angel View Post
      I'm sure many people will disagree with me, and that's ok. I do understand why you want to be represented in society as a whole. I just don't think it HAS to be here in this game to make this game a fun, and friendly adventure. I am allowed to have an open, honest discussion on this topic just the same as you. Even if my views are the opposite of yours.
      We need representation in Wizard and Pirate101 because these games overrepresent cishet characters. It's just discrimination if, in this context, we aren't given a chance to shine too.


      Edit: Also, if we are to be properly represented in this society, then why shouldn't that start with video games that accurately reflect real life by including LGB+ people? It's no skin off your back and yet we stand to see only net gains, so why are you so opposed to diversity?





      *Our identities are not "views," nor are they an agenda we push onto other people.
      Last edited by JaredSpellFrost; 6-2-22 at 10:52:53 PM. Reason: Adding sentence + Fixing grammar

      "Yet like a bad case of athlete's foot you just kept coming back." -Cosmos
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    8. #8
      edward sky's Avatar
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      Re: Enough Corporate Pride, KI: We Need Action!

      Why someone would say requesting an L G B T character in a literal fantasy world where "wizards" summon trolls to puke on monster is "attacking" the game is BEYOND me.

      As someone part of the Alphabet, I will say though I just don't think we're there yet, I'm just very happy and proud to see KI/Gamigo even acknowledging their support and knowing some staff are also members themselves. As well as the items and donations they do are great.

      10 years ago I would have cried to see my main MMO support it so openly likely they do now, so alot of progress has been made for it to be something profitable (even if it's that's potentially half-intent)

      Just as I'd wish for a L G B T Prince or princess in a Disney movie, we're just not there yet. But someday my friend, I hope. They'd have to add it organically enough that it would fit the story than be pandering, so ideally in can be a future arc and be as subtle as "I'd like you to go fetch my Suitcase and return it to my husband xyz" in a collect and defeat quest. Those that get it, will feel warm and fuzzy, those that don't will just do the quest turn it in and not think a second more. Main character in a game, or a Disney film someday maybe!
      Last edited by edward sky; 6-2-22 at 11:24:32 PM.

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    9. #9
      SeptenaryRavens's Avatar
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      Re: Enough Corporate Pride, KI: We Need Action!

      1. I really don't care if KI decides to add or change the content in order for us to feel more included. I've been playing the game for 11 years and haven't had an issue with the relationships portrayed in the game (ie. Malistaire and Sylvia, Raven and Spider, Zeke and Eloise). If KI decides to make changes or add things to the game to cater to us in the LGB+ community, then that's great. But I won't get mad if they don't because after all I play this game to escape reality, and for the nostalgia.

      2. If we as consumers have issues with companies taking advantage of Pride Month for monetary gain, then we need to vote with our wallets. Support local small businesses and charities/non-profits rather than corporations. Personally, I understand KI's sentiment behind releasing these items for Pride Month, but being a person in the LGB+ community is not limited to a certain time of year. Christmas, Halloween, Easter, St. Patty's Day, Veteran's Day, etc all happen once a year. LGB+ spans the entire year. The only way I would support a corporation through Pride Month is if they year-round show support for both the LGB+ community, and recognized local and national LGB+ charities and non-profits.

      But to clear one thing up that I noticed in the replies - religion and being LGB+ are not equal. One is a choice and one is not. Do not equate the two.




    10. #10
      PlayerNEntered's Avatar
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      Re: Enough Corporate Pride, KI: We Need Action!

      Quote Originally Posted by JaredSpellFrost View Post
      corporate pride / rainbow capitalism:
      As you can likely guess from the title of this post, I'm here to say that KingsIsle is guilty of rainbow capitalism and how they can truly commit to inclusistivty. First of all, I should define the problem: Wizard101 has existed for 13 and a half years but despite this, there are zero LBGTQI+ characters in the entire game. Pirate101 has existed for 9 and a half years but despite this, there are zero LBGTQI+ characters in the entire game.
      There most certainly is an oversaturating of straight characters though, many of which are given key roles in the story. Raven and Spider, Mailisatire and Sylvia, Sultana Sharzad, Odysseus, Gortez, the countless kings+queens of Monquista, the Moomori wedding, the Grand Tourney Gauntlet, the chivalrous knights of Avalon, etc. etc.

      All of these cishet characters are shoved down the queer community's throats, and it's exhausting. I list all of these characters to illustrate the fact that there is a clear imbalance of representation in both games, and that we are deserving of queer characters.
      I usually don't agree with your points, but I can see where you come from with them. My problem with this is the wording on this comment. KI can do better on their characters to me, and what I don't want to see is people being queer for pandering. I want a character who just so happens to be queer, not one made so they can be like "Look at our queer character". Your comment gives me the fear of KI doing it just to please you, and not because they actually care. KI has changed over time, and now with new views they're adding representation, it's not like some story of some evil villain who doesn't care about anyone.

      Odysseus (Thought I assume you mean Ulysses from Pirate101? Couldn't find anyone else when searching him up) is literally a reference to Odysseus from Mythology, the guy who spent 10 years in a war and 10 years trying to get back to his wife Penelope.

      If you meant the guy in Tartarus looking for Euridycice (can't spell lol), congrats, you found another reference to Greek Mythology. This guy went to the Underworld on a quest to get his wife back.
      I don't wanna go on for all of them, but queer representation doesn't mean removing cishet people from the game.

      I get why you're upset at the lack of representation though, yeah I want some stuff, I wanna change my wizard's gender and name. I can't delete my main Fire because she means a lot to me, and has stuff only she can get (such as backpack elixirs). Being able to change her name from 'Patrick' to anything else would mean A LOT. I like to see my max Fire as some extension of myself to a certain point, and not being able to be myself in this game hurts.

      I want some representation, but I don't want it forced to please people. At it's heart Wizard101 and Pirate101 are games with unique and fun battle systems, entertaining and enjoyable characters, and interesting stories, and I don't want KI to forget that. Make a character that fits the storyline, then make them their own person.

      One of my favorites is Duck Savage, while all she does is refer to Wilma as her deer, it lays a path for us to see a relationship expanded upon if we were ever to return to Lemuria (KI please don't leave more good npcs behind the Heroes were amazing).

      I hope anything I just said makes sense lol, I'm not good with these long types of comments

      I don't like it when people call things impossible, because it usually isn't.
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