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    1. #11
      Bailey Jade's Avatar
        Bailey Jade is offline Promethean Wizard

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      Re: Game Patch for Jan. 19, 2022.

      Players find ways to troll and be obnoxious in other ways. Not too long ago, I was in the hatchery working on a pet project and there was this guy and gal there. The guy was being really obnoxious. At one point, right when I jump in the sigil to hatch, he jumps in too. I end up losing my hatch. He did this on purpose. I was pass mad, cussing up a storm irl. Sad thing, I was in my normal realm that I do all my hatching as well. So, no matter what, you will always have those who are going to do mean things to other just for fun of it.

      I have to say I disagree with this, but I am sure that there are some players who got the 10-year mute and continue to do things.

      What I do not get, there has been those who got ban from buying up tons on glowing mushrooms long ago, accused "exploiting", when it really did not affect anyone. In recent times, there are those who cheated their way in the deckalathon event either by leaving to restock their decks and use dungeon recall and/or using a will cast talent that killed everything right away. Yet nothing happened to those players, but this is something that did affect others.

      So, I do not get it.

      - - - Updated - - -

      Quote Originally Posted by AstralFrost View Post
      Personally, I think the PVP restriction should be limited to 7 days after the initial mute/sanction was given out.

      It seems unfair that someone with a 10 year mute (why is that even a thing?) should never be allowed to participate in PVP.
      Unless they have 1, 2, 3, strikes your done type of deal

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    2. #12
      AstralFrost's Avatar
        AstralFrost is offline Apprentice Wizard

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      Re: Game Patch for Jan. 19, 2022.

      Quote Originally Posted by Sparck View Post
      This is just one step to reduce the toxicity and gameplay abuse we are seeing in PvP gameplay. We're of course monitoring feedback on each change we make, just like we do for everything else that goes into a game update.

      If you have any concerns about your account, you can of course contact customer support and they will be happy to review your account status. Do not contact support on behalf of someone else or for generalized complaints.

      Please also review the Community Code of Conduct and the Terms of Use regarding what may result in your account being moderated.

      Thanks all for understanding our efforts here!
      Yea, I understand the efforts and I do appreciate them.

      From what I've seen the PVP environment can be REALLY toxic and unfriendly. It seems like the majority of the "drama" that comes out of the game originates from PVP.

      While I personally think that this restriction system might need to be tweaked a bit and made more specific, I think it generally makes sense and is appropriate.

      The negative environment that PVP has has kept me from participating but if the behavior of some players were to improve, I would consider joining the arena fun!
      AstralFrost
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    3. #13
      SeptenaryRavens's Avatar
        SeptenaryRavens is offline Master Wizard
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      Re: Game Patch for Jan. 19, 2022.

      Quote Originally Posted by The Dragoness View Post
      The punishment is already a ten year mute (which is low key permanent), which...at least solves the problem.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sparck View Post
      This is just one step to reduce the toxicity and gameplay abuse we are seeing in PvP gameplay

      Back when I did Transcendent PvP on my balance wizard 4-5 years ago, I was driven away from PvP due to the toxic nature of the Arena. Muted players back then easily could have went on alternate accounts and chatted up a storm that way, but doing so wasn't what made PvP toxic in my opinion. The toxicity lied solely on the advantage vs. disadvantage aspect. Because this was back in the era where you could view players' gear and stats in the Arena, while in a match, or while viewing a match - players who had the resources could very easily set for certain schools. That privilege has since been revoked, and I started having higher hopes for PvP again.

      But that hope was short lived with the release of the Primevil Hoard Pack. Another** game-breaking pack with it's gear set bonuses and increase in stats for certain schools vs the dropped Paradox gear and crafted Dragoon gear. At that point it was 100% clear to me that KI itself was (and still is) one of the main contributors to PvP toxicity.

      It's one thing to use gear in the Arena that everyone has access to with just a membership. It's another thing to pay KI to help win matches for you. This is what's keeping me away from the Arena. "Banning muted players from PvP" isn't going to help anything because KI has and still will actively release game-breaking packs and gear that out-perform any dropped or crafted gear that ALL players have access to. So basically until KI becomes less greedy with cash grabs, I'm not going to PvP (basically never). Point blank period.

      Long story short, the players were muted (the punishment) and us wizards have ignore buttons (further punishment). Banning muted players does nothing, and this is just to cover KI from any criticism about THEIR active participation in making PvP toxic. Will we see KI lower the membership costs for those who cannot access PvP anymore? ...I thought so.

      **And I thought the Sinbad, Professor's, Terror's, etc packs were bad haha.

      Edit: The Marleybone Motorist's pack is just p2w, literally the only robe I see PvPers wearing these days - Marleybone Mortorist's Overcoat.
      Last edited by SeptenaryRavens; 1-20-22 at 10:04:47 PM.




    4. #14
      Flash33's Avatar
        Flash33 is offline Exalted

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      Re: Game Patch for Jan. 19, 2022.

      Quote Originally Posted by SeptenaryRavens View Post
      Back when I did Transcendent PvP on my balance wizard 4-5 years ago, I was driven away from PvP due to the toxic nature of the Arena. Muted players back then easily could have went on alternate accounts and chatted up a storm that way, but doing so wasn't what made PvP toxic in my opinion. The toxicity lied solely on the advantage vs. disadvantage aspect. Because this was back in the era where you could view players' gear and stats in the Arena, while in a match, or while viewing a match - players who had the resources could very easily set for certain schools. That privilege has since been revoked, and I started having higher hopes for PvP again.

      But that hope was short lived with the release of the Primevil Hoard Pack. Another** game-breaking pack with it's gear set bonuses and increase in stats for certain schools vs the dropped Paradox gear and crafted Dragoon gear. At that point it was 100% clear to me that KI itself was (and still is) one of the main contributors to PvP toxicity.

      It's one thing to use gear in the Arena that everyone has access to with just a membership. It's another thing to pay KI to help win matches for you. This is what's keeping me away from the Arena. "Banning muted players from PvP" isn't going to help anything because KI has and still will actively release game-breaking packs and gear that out-perform any dropped or crafted gear that ALL players have access to. So basically until KI becomes less greedy with cash grabs, I'm not going to PvP (basically never). Point blank period.

      Long story short, the players were muted (the punishment) and us wizards have ignore buttons (further punishment). Banning muted players does nothing, and this is just to cover KI from any criticism about THEIR active participation in making PvP toxic. Will we see KI lower the membership costs for those who cannot access PvP anymore? ...I thought so.

      **And I thought the Sinbad, Professor's, Terror's, etc packs were bad haha.

      Edit: The Marleybone Motorist's pack is just p2w, literally the only robe I see PvPers wearing these days - Marleybone Mortorist's Overcoat.
      While the pack gear issue is an issue I highly disagree with the idea that banning muted players somehow covers KI's own faults in the matter. KI has let these issues go on for far too long, and while they deserve to be criticized for it they do at least also deserve the chance to prove they're serious about this. As for the ignore button, sure it's a handy tool to use when need be, but it's only a band-aid solution at most and doesn't stop the toxic players from being toxic. Not only that but it doesn't stop them from being toxic in non-chat based ways such as the ones me and @Bailey Jade listed.

      If KI is truly serious on tackling the toxicity problem then they need to prove it by actually banning people with a history of toxicity* rather than just simply 10-year muting them & that's it while also making it more clear what is and isn't consider a punishable offense**. Once that's done then they can look at addressing the pack gear issue. Players will also have to prove that KI putting time and resources into addressing these issues wasn't in vain. Both are tall orders I know but it's a two-way street either way.

      *A way they can do this is by implementing a version of LoL's punishment ladder, where the first two strikes are a 10 and 25 game chat restriction respectively, strike 3 is a 2-week ban & strike 4 is a permaban, with the option to skip straight to strike 3 or 4 if need be as well as being able to improve account standing via consistent good behavior.

      **Clear enough that the general playerbase knows what to watch out for but vague enough that makes it harder for the would-be trolls to skirt around the rules and act up punishment free.
      Last edited by Flash33; 1-23-22 at 7:18:56 AM.

    5. #15
      Bailey Jade's Avatar
        Bailey Jade is offline Promethean Wizard

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      Re: Game Patch for Jan. 19, 2022.

      Quote Originally Posted by Flash33 View Post
      While the pack gear issue is an issue I highly disagree with the idea that banning muted players somehow covers KI's own faults in the matter. KI has let these issues go on for far too long, and while they deserve to be criticized for it they do at least also deserve the chance to prove they're serious about this. As for the ignore button, sure it's a handy tool to use when need be, but it's only a band-aid solution at most and doesn't stop the toxic players from being toxic. Not only that but it doesn't stop them from being toxic in non-chat based ways such as the ones me and @Bailey Jade listed.

      If KI is truly serious on tackling the toxicity problem then they need to prove it by actually banning people with a history of toxicity* rather than just simply 10-year muting them & that's it while also making it more clear what is and isn't consider a punishable offense**. Once that's done then they can look at addressing the pack gear issue. Players will also have to prove that KI putting time and resources into addressing these issues wasn't in vain. Both are tall orders I know but it's a two-way street either way.

      *A way they can do this is by implementing a version of LoL's punishment ladder, where the first two strikes are a 10 and 25 game chat restriction respectively, strike 3 is a 2-week ban & strike 4 is a permaban, with the option to skip straight to strike 3 or 4 if need be as well as being able to improve account standing via consistent good behavior.

      **Clear enough that the general playerbase knows what to watch out for but vague enough that makes it harder for the would-be trolls to skirt around the rules and act up punishment free.
      These are some good ideas that I agree with. The only thing that would concern me, would they be able to just make a new account by using a proxy server or getting a new proxy server?

      I know a lot of players who did get the 10-year mute that just make new accounts. So, in a way that has not really worked.

      I know a lot of players who got falsely reported and got a x amount mute due to the robo cop., yet I see people going around the filter on purpose all the time.

      You have to make sure that those who don't mean things will not lose their accounts. This is why I like the 1, 2 3 strikes system and make this game less toxic so people can enjoy the game without bullies and cheaters.

      I do have an question, what happen to the monitors? You used to know they were around due to message in open chats, but now you never see those type of message anymore.

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    6. #16
      SeptenaryRavens's Avatar
        SeptenaryRavens is offline Master Wizard
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      Re: Game Patch for Jan. 19, 2022.

      Quote Originally Posted by Flash33 View Post
      ...KI has let these issues go on for far too long, and while they deserve to be criticized for it they do at least also deserve the chance to prove they're serious about this. As for the ignore button, sure it's a handy tool to use when need be, but it's only a band-aid solution at most and doesn't stop the toxic players from being toxic. Not only that but it doesn't stop them from being toxic in non-chat based ways such as the ones me and @Bailey Jade listed.

      ...they need to prove it by actually banning people with a history of toxicity rather than just simply 10-year muting them... Once that's done then they can look at addressing the pack gear issue.
      Quote Originally Posted by Bailey Jade View Post
      ...This is why I like the 1, 2 3 strikes system and make this game less toxic so people can enjoy the game without bullies and cheaters.
      I 100% agree with you two. Online harassment will continue to thrive on KI's platforms if they don't take these issues more seriously. A 3 or 4 strike system would be more affective. But like Bailey said, VPNs exist and they could very easily change their IP address to make new accounts in the case they get IP banned.

      It's just my opinion that the PvP bans on muted accounts are just band-aids on top of the "straight to strike 3" method that KI uses when sanctioning accounts. The way KI has been doing it for the last 12+ years has almost made the 10-year mute laughable, instead of seen as a punishment. Sure, KI will weed out some of these verbally toxic players with this new stance, but verbal toxicity isn't going to go away completely if they don't take more action in the ways you two have mentioned. It's impossible to get rid of harassment and toxicity online completely, but as long as KI makes the solution meaningful (/hard for these players to engage in this kind of behaviour), I think that's the most that could be asked for. This game is designed for kids and young teens; we don't need our future generations to be exposed to that kind of environment.

      As for the pack issue, all of that was and still is just my opinion. My one voice isn't going to change the entire business practice of a company; I was just saying that the PvP Arena will be off limits for me for the foreseeable future. If most max fire wizards are running the overcoat, primevil wand, frillosaur pet, and dragoon hat and boots, I think that's an issue. There isn't enough variety in farmed/crafted tier 1 gear sets (I mean look at the Dragoon and Merciless sets), and KI pushes all of that "variety" into packs. The day when crown shop gear turns into cosmetic rather than pay to win is the day I'll step back into the arena. Everyone should have equal opportunity, and giving players with money an advantage over those who don't screams unfairness to me.
      Last edited by SeptenaryRavens; 1-23-22 at 12:26:03 PM.




    7. #17
      The Dragoness's Avatar
        The Dragoness is offline Archmage Wizard

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      Re: Game Patch for Jan. 19, 2022.

      I understand why KI is prone to blanket solutions (10 year mute, and now this PvP-ban joined with it) because they are not a PvP game the way several others that have more nuanced strike systems are. Wizard101 is like 95% collaborative, so it's hard to spend a ton of resources on just one aspect.

      As for PvP being pay-to-win, or at least pay-to-not-be-sideeyed-by-players-with-superiority-complexes, eh. This has been going on forever. We had Jade, we had people paying for elucidates to do 5-pip rebirths and other exclusive TCs that were hard to come by (the days of lifebat spam...). I'd like to say Wizard101 did a lot to balance out these PvP aspects but frankly I don't have the brain cells to understand the new formulas for resist/etc. It doesn't bother me much anymore. The only things that annoy me in PvP these days are blatant exploits--not obnoxious strategies, but legit exploits. Beyond that, things inevitably get corrected and reset in the next age.


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    8. #18
      Flash33's Avatar
        Flash33 is offline Exalted

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      Re: Game Patch for Jan. 19, 2022.

      Quote Originally Posted by Bailey Jade View Post
      These are some good ideas that I agree with. The only thing that would concern me, would they be able to just make a new account by using a proxy server or getting a new proxy server?

      I know a lot of players who did get the 10-year mute that just make new accounts. So, in a way that has not really worked.

      I know a lot of players who got falsely reported and got a x amount mute due to the robo cop., yet I see people going around the filter on purpose all the time.

      You have to make sure that those who don't mean things will not lose their accounts. This is why I like the 1, 2 3 strikes system and make this game less toxic so people can enjoy the game without bullies and cheaters.

      I do have an question, what happen to the monitors? You used to know they were around due to message in open chats, but now you never see those type of message anymore.
      Regarding your first question there's nothing hard stopping people from simply making new accounts to continue their toxicity, but honestly that's an issue all F2P/S games face. Also like @SeptenaryRavens said IP bans don't work as it's fairly easy to get around that with enough technical know-how. Not only that but it also unfairly punishes those on the same IP. Riot once tried an IP ban many years ago to stop a toxic player from playing, but doing so also stopped an entire college campus/dorm from playing, so since then they've never done those ban types. The only thing you can do is make it as inconvenient as possible for them to continue making accounts by continuously punishing them until they either give up and leave for good or change their ways and improve their behavior.

      KI could also do what Riot does as a last resort and ID ban them where any account confirmed to belong to the same person is immediately, manually banned on sight. Of course an ID ban can be lifted or extended (without the previously banned accounts given back) if some conditions are met first:

      Quote Originally Posted by Riot Games: Understanding ID Bans
      How can an ID banned player get their ID ban removed?

      If a player receives an ID ban as a result of negative in-game behavior, it is possible, but far from guaranteed that the ban will be lifted in the future. Important Note: even if the ID ban is rescinded, previously-banned accounts will never be given back. A few things must happen first:

      • The ID banned player needs to wait at least one year from the date of ID ban. This date is communicated to the affected player in the email they receive upon being ID banned.
      • After a year has passed, the affected player should submit a player support request to ask for a re-evaluation of the ID ban. This request should include lists of any and all accounts the player has used while ID banned.
      • We'll conduct a search for any associated Riot accounts and investigate the player's account activity (if there is any).

      If these conditions are satisfied, we'll make a final call on whether to lift the ban or extend it.

      If the conditions are not satisfied, the ID ban can be re-evaluated beginning one year from the date of the player’s previous request for evaluation.

      When a player's ID ban is lifted, it means that we'll no longer manually ban their accounts on sight. However, because of the seriousness of the ID ban, we'll continue to pay close attention to in-game behavior. If a player lapses back into their old, negative behaviors, we'll conduct an investigation and contact the affected player. Depending on the outcome of the investigation, it's possible that we'll re-apply the ID-ban for at least another year.

      One last thing: As a general rule, we won’t discuss the status of ID banned players with anyone except the affected players themselves.
      As for your second question I couldn't tell you.

      EDIT: Something else KI needs to do is share full chat logs with the affected player rather than just a small sampling. They claim they can't due to security reasons but from my understanding this was never an issue for LoL even during the Tribunal days (the system in which players themselves voted on cases & whether they feel it deserves to be punished or pardoned with Riot having final say before moving to the automated system in place today (the Instant Feedback System or IFS) due to low participation/cases & people just spam clicking punish/pardon without actually reading the cases), so to me KI's reasoning seems very weak.
      Last edited by Flash33; 1-24-22 at 6:10:08 PM.

    9. #19
      Caspeen's Avatar
        Caspeen is offline W101C Tournament Master
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      Re: Game Patch for Jan. 19, 2022.

      Quote Originally Posted by Bailey Jade View Post
      You have to make sure that those who don't mean things will not lose their accounts. This is why I like the 1, 2 3 strikes system and make this game less toxic so people can enjoy the game without bullies and cheaters.
      I do have an question, what happen to the monitors? You used to know they were around due to message in open chats, but now you never see those type of message anymore.
      Until Bailey said something to me in game I totally forgot when Monitors were a thing!

      Wonder why we don't see more of them? I bet if KI dedicated some monitors to watch matches all day, every day for a few weeks, muting or banning based on the behavior they saw, things would change.

      Seems so...obvious.

      Is it a cost issue? Well, given the old 80 / 20 rule where 80% of the issues come from 20% of the people, shouldn't take too long to get rid of most of the issues. So sure, it would cost a bit at first, but over the long haul it could make the Arena much more appealing to those like myself who left the arena due to the appalling sportsmanship.

      But if even that is too much commit to, what about instituting some system where certain "trusted" players could react in real time issues and be deputized to institute a 24 hour mute on a player until KI could review the situation? Something where players who wanted to report a situation could "raise their hand" to summons a player-monitor to witness and determine if there's something that should be escalated.

      And who would be a "trusted" player? Maybe this would be something that players could volunteer for if they met certain requirements like


      • Have an account older than xxxx
      • Have never been banned or muted
      • And maybe some other requirements to demonstrate good W101 citizenship, as in "done X number of team ups" or things like that.


      Of course, a player-monitor could lose their status if their decisions were deemed by KI to be wrongful.

      A bit wild wild west perhaps but there are many, many committed players would would take such a responsibility very seriously and would do a brilliant job at making the game less toxic and more family friendly.

      So great call out @Bailey Jade - if KI really, truly wants to make the arena less toxic, more Monitors (KI and ./ or the player volunteer kind) would have a huge impact.

      Casp

    10. #20
      Lightdragon's Avatar
        Lightdragon is offline Legendary Wizard

      • Lightdragon's Wizard Stats
        •  Wizard's Name:
        •  Liam RavenShade
        •  Wizard's Level:
        •  130
        •  World:
        •  Empyrea
        •  Wizard's School:
        •  Balance
        •  Pet's Name:
        •  too many
        •  Pet's Type:
        •  artic fox
      Status: Hello Karamelle er Lurmur
       
      Mood:
      Artistic
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2011
      Posts
      4,993
      PvP Tournaments Won
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      Thanks (Given)
      3260
      Thanks (Received)
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      Gold
      197.00

      Re: Game Patch for Jan. 19, 2022.

      Quote Originally Posted by Bailey Jade View Post
      What I do not get, there has been those who got ban from buying up tons on glowing mushrooms long ago, accused "exploiting", when it really did not affect anyone. In recent times, there are those who cheated their way in the deckalathon event either by leaving to restock their decks and use dungeon recall and/or using a will cast talent that killed everything right away. Yet nothing happened to those players, but this is something that did affect others.
      that one seems ridiculous. it deals with bugs in the system. At the time period buying gold with crowns must have been still happening. so if you are getting all that free gold.

      It cuts into the profits. Not only that but with all that extra gold or unlimited gold you can buy out all the reagents at the bazaar .

      So you start a ban to scare the rest of the player base. much like plant stacking which was also having people banned as well. but that was also cutting the sales of buying gold and megasnack packs.


      But I do agree with you on the PVP queing ban as what i saw done to menu chat restricted players years ago. One thing i learned was you can really make a player feel uncomfortable playing the game without texting anything.


      Now I did Mandrake the Maligician before the update and i have yet to do it again to see what changes occurred. Just finished the Snow Queen and that is heavily bugged. And that needs fixing. and i heard of the Shark principle is also bugged. and i heard nothing from the Writer boss.
      Do NOT meddle in the affairs of Dragons. for you are crunchy and good with ketchup

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