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  • View Poll Results: How do you judge the bans against the 3 players who ported to ”assist ” The Atmoplex?

    Voters
    38. You may not vote on this poll
    • The bans are justified!

      6 15.79%
    • The bans are unjustified!

      18 47.37%
    • The players did wrong but deserve a lighter punishment than perm ban

      14 36.84%
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    Results 21 to 30 of 53
    1. #21
      Swordroll's Avatar
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      Re: Thoughts on the recently banned players?

      It's definitely a tough situation. I've seen a lot of people saying that the purpose of the Test Realm is to test. That doesn't apply to breaking the ToS. The Test Realm is not an open invitation to break rules; it's an opportunity to play through content as its intended and see what isn't working as intended. KingsIsle is not responsible for breaches in its security any more than a bank is responsible for being robbed. No one says "the bank had it coming."

      The Atmoplex used what they admitted was an exploit. They knew about it and "prepared for months" for the consequences. It's unfortunate that they themselves exploited and took advantage of other innocent players when they knew this was a risk. That's part of the reason that accounts and spoilers who are breaking the ToS and using these exploits should be shut down. In the same way that players were charged for redeeming free bundles given to them by someone who bought them with a bad credit card, other players who consume and share content obtained by violating the ToS may be unknowingly violating the ToS themselves and find out they're banned one day. The best course of action for players is not to look at or interact with such content and hope that it's removed.

      The players who unknowingly participated really don't deserve their bans or any form of punishment - they used existing game functions the same as anybody else would and didn't knowingly engage in anything that seemed or looked like an exploit. They were unfortunately swept up in the behavior of someone who not only exploits KingsIsle and their game files, but also now other unsuspecting players. Until such individuals are removed from the game and community, the danger for players who follow the rules of getting swept up in such an incident and banned will continue to exist.

    2. #22
      JaredSpellFrost's Avatar
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      Arrow Re: Thoughts on the recently banned players?

      Quote Originally Posted by Swordroll View Post
      It's definitely a tough situation. I've seen a lot of people saying that the purpose of the Test Realm is to test. That doesn't apply to breaking the ToS. The Test Realm is not an open invitation to break rules; it's an opportunity to play through content as its intended and see what isn't working as intended. KingsIsle is not responsible for breaches in its security any more than a bank is responsible for being robbed. No one says "the bank had it coming."

      Counterpoint- KingsIsle should be grateful that people like the Atmoplex take the time to explore these exploits with third party programs in Test Realm. Even if they don't file a bug report* they still bring attention to this exploit which creates opportunities for KingsIsle to fix it. And by doing so, the game's security is further assured in Live Realm, something Atmoplex and his team clearly care about more than KingsIsle.
      It's painfully obvious that KI is only worried about dishing out these bans, rather than address their hole in security, given the fact this exploit has existed for 3+ years.



      I mean, look at it like this: If KingsIsle allows Players to break their game in Test Realm with third party programs, that means once the update is released then Live Realm will be even more secure (Assuming KingsIsle fixed these reported exploits).
      Regardless, nobody should have been banned, including Atmoplex. Perhaps place an ordinance banning such behavior in the future**, but seeing how there was no prior indication that using an exploit in Test Realm would net one a ban, there should be no consequences this time.





      *That's a bit difficult to do when you're banned, plus this exploit has been known for years- it's unfair to expect Players to consistently report such bugs/exploits if KI is already aware of it.


      **Punishment should scale accordingly, from a simple verbal warning, to a warning, to sanctions, then finally a ban. Innocent Players who are teleported in should NEVER be punished, however.
      Last edited by JaredSpellFrost; 11-15-21 at 2:23:51 AM.

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    3. #23
      Swordroll's Avatar
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      Re: Thoughts on the recently banned players?

      Quote Originally Posted by JaredSpellFrost View Post
      Counterpoint- KingsIsle should be grateful that people like the Atmoplex take the time to explore these exploits with third party programs in Test Realm. Even if they don't file a bug report* they still bring attention to this exploit which creates opportunities for KingsIsle to fix it. And by doing so, the game's security is further assured in Live Realm, something Atmoplex and his team clearly care about more than KingsIsle.
      I mean, look at it like this: If KingsIsle allows Players to break their game in Test Realm with third party programs, that means once the update is released then Live Realm will be even more secure (Assuming KingsIsle fixed these reported exploits).
      Consider the point you're making: the bank should be grateful they were robbed! Assuming they fix their security, it'll be better next time.

      I think some folks are struggling to understand the difference between a "bug" where a door is open that shouldn't be, and purposefully manipulating the game to gain an advantage. That's not a bug. That's not play-testing. That is cheating, always, in any realm - test or live. No one is or should be grateful for cheating or having their system taken advantage of. That's simply not how it works.

      Just because someone can break in does not mean it was "allowed." A bank does not "allow" a robbery. Even if the bank does nothing to update their security, the robbery is still wrong. Always. In every scenario. The bank could have completely horrendous security, and do you know what happens when they're robbed? The robbers go to jail. "The bank was asking for it" or "the bank should increase security" or "the bank will know better and should be grateful" are absurd arguments and defenses that would never fly in any serious legal scenario, and the ToS are a legally-binding contract into which you have entered.

      There is no scenario where the Atmoplex's behavior is acceptable, and according to the same ToS being broken, KingsIsle can terminate their accounts. It really is as simple as that.

    4. #24
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      Post Re: Thoughts on the recently banned players?

      Quote Originally Posted by Swordroll View Post
      I think some folks are struggling to understand the difference between a "bug" where a door is open that shouldn't be, and purposefully manipulating the game to gain an advantage. That's not a bug. That's not play-testing. That is cheating, always, in any realm - test or live. No one is or should be grateful for cheating or having their system taken advantage of. That's simply not how it works.
      But what advantage did Atmoplex and his team gain? This all transpired in Test Realm, so there were no consequences.. Which is why there should be no consequences for Atmoplex or the innocent Players. It's because of this that I feel your bank analogy is a bit unfair: Atmoplex, and all Test Realm testers for that matter, are more akin to a security company the bank has hired to test their cybersecurity. But because they found a bug in the bank's system, all of a sudden the bank terminates their contract..? It doesn't make any sense.
      Of course, reality is that we actually pay KingsIsle for the "privilege" to troubleshoot their games, so I wonder who the real thief is here.



      Quote Originally Posted by Swordroll View Post
      There is no scenario where the Atmoplex's behavior is acceptable, and according to the same ToS being broken, KingsIsle can terminate their accounts. It really is as simple as that.
      So then why has KingsIsle acknowledged this exploit and others who have used it and done nothing? There's no consistency, even with these bans which makes this punishment even more unjust. If Atmoplex respectfully exploring a known exploit in an environment literally designed for breaking the game is such a violent offense to the ToS, then I'd argue that the problem lies within the rules and it's enforcers, not these persecuted Players.


      Last edited by JaredSpellFrost; 11-15-21 at 3:22:13 AM.

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    5. #25
      Willowdreamer's Avatar
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      Re: Thoughts on the recently banned players?

      I haven't watched the video in its entirety, because I don't want to see the final battle of the new world, so in a way, I don't feel equipped to vote on the poll. At this point, I'm a little befuddled by the turn the discussion has taken. The original post and poll seems to be asking whether the "punishment fit the crime," but now the debate seems to be whether or not players should follow the Terms of Service even in the Test Realm.

      I agree with @Caspeen that this is why I stay off of social media. I also agree with @Swordroll that simply because a weakness exists, that situation should not allow anyone to take advantage on purpose for their own aggrandizement. Kingsisle certainly does need to show everyone - especially streamers - where the line in the sand is or the streamers will forever be crossing it and then claiming ignorance of it. Backing off after using their most severe punishment seems appropriate here.

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    6. #26
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      Re: Thoughts on the recently banned players?

      Quote Originally Posted by JaredSpellFrost View Post
      But what advantage did Atmoplex and his team gain?
      The Atmoplex advantage attempted to gain was outside of the game. The "preparation for months" and the immediate tweet after the final fight was clearly to bolster their out-of-game objectives. Atmoplex was intentionally using an exploit for click/viewers/subscribers on social media platforms, not to help KI fix bugs or exploits in their game (which is the ONLY reason for KI run a test realm in the first place).

      Certainly, I'm not advocating that Atmoplex should be posting found exploits publicly (that' s even worse), but from the KI statements made, it seems no one at Atmoplex EVER communicated a single bug/exploit to the support team (via private DMs, bug tool, email, etc).

      Again, the teleporters are different story on intentions....

    7. #27
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      Re: Thoughts on the recently banned players?

      So here comes the "old man" in me. This is where my opinion is really going to get crossways with the younger crowd. Feel free to comment as you like and give me a good flogging for it, but...

      Why is it so hard to just play the game (whether live or test realm) as is? There are so many people out there looking for this stuff and I personally just do not get it. Whether it's teleporting behind the counter in the bazaar or shifting yourself to the end of the game (like this particular situation), I don't understand why we're actively looking for these things when we ALL know the tolerance level is zero. There is very little interpretation by KI on matters like this, so why are we even taking the chance? Why can we not just play the game as it's intended?
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    8. #28
      JaredSpellFrost's Avatar
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      Post Re: Thoughts on the recently banned players?

      Quote Originally Posted by Kingurz View Post
      The Atmoplex advantage attempted to gain was outside of the game. The "preparation for months" and the immediate tweet after the final fight was clearly to bolster their out-of-game objectives. Atmoplex was intentionally using an exploit for click/viewers/subscribers on social media platforms, not to help KI fix bugs or exploits in their game (which is the ONLY reason for KI run a test realm in the first place).

      If the advantage Atmoplex had to gain wasn't in the game itself, then why does this matter? It's most certainly unfair to ban Players for harmless self-promotion outside of the game. The only rule this act could violate is the "We can ban you if we say so" rule, which is hardly reasonable.





      Quote Originally Posted by Kingurz View Post
      Certainly, I'm not advocating that Atmoplex should be posting found exploits publicly (that' s even worse), but from the KI statements made, it seems no one at Atmoplex EVER communicated a single bug/exploit to the support team (via private DMs, bug tool, email, etc).

      And as I touched on earlier, it is unfair to expect Players to report bugs that have existed for years. KingsIsle was aware of this exploit and others who utilized it, but no action was taken. I mean, why would anyone be motivated to report a known bug again when KI has exhibited a pattern of apathy? Plus, Players are under no obligation to report bugs in Test Realm, a concept further reinforced by the fact that we pay KingsIsle for the "privilege" to be there.


      It's clear that KI only cares about banning first and asking questions later, rather than addressing the actual problem too. This sort of attitude will only demotivate bug reporters even more, as other Centralites have mentioned here- something I whole heartedly support. I'll definitely abstain from reporting all bugs I encounter from here on out, since such efforts apparently aren't appreciated enough at KingsIsle HQ.



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    9. #29
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      Re: Thoughts on the recently banned players?

      The similarity between Polaris, Mirage, and both parts of Empyrea (I can't recall if this was the case in Karamelle), is that the final fight was restricted for the first week or two of test realm. I believe if KI were to have done the same with this fight, they possibly could have discovered this exploit prior to releasing it.

      Now I'm not justifying what Atmoplex did, but if an outsider is able to find exploits in game files while KI cannot, that speaks volumes to me. Regardless of if they (AP) planned this months in advance and broke the ToS or not, KI didn't plan to patch this months in advance so I personally can't give them the benefit of the doubt. Until KI can hire someone that does exactly what Atmoplex did, finding exploits, then it's hard for me to justify punishing the people who are there to help and aid you, and any innocent bystanders pushed into the lava pit. All while paying KI to use their service.

      I've never been banned from the game, nor received mutes, so I don't have the predisposition bias in the opposition of bans from using exploits. But TEST realm literally has the word TEST in it, so even if someone discovers an exploit (advantageously repeating a bug) and TESTs it out, there should literally be no consequences for that. And besides, if KI was able to ban the players after using the exploit, then there was no need to report it if they already knew about it.




    10. #30
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      Re: Thoughts on the recently banned players?

      When I saw this on twitter last week I just knew it would make its way here eventually. I'll give my thoughts on some major points brought up so far by the community and the parties involved.



      The test realm is for testing. This includes testing exploits and loopholes. Atmoplex was doing just that.

      No. That is not what the test realm is for. Test realm is a beta test to iron out final bugs upon launch. The purpose is to dry run the player experience before it goes live while reporting any hiccups along the way so they can be tweaked. It is not supposed to be used to actively seek out ways to manipulate and cheat through the game with exploits. Again: test realm is not, as Atmoplex's video suggests, "a place where the developers encourage players to break the game." He knows that statement is a lie which is why he is not contesting his own account being banned, and indeed, why he stated that his account being banned was expected.

      I can't comment on the Aether Titan situation as I don't know much more than the video stated. It seems a logical appeal to precedent.

      The widespread nature of the present situation has nothing to do with whether what happened was "right" or "wrong".

      Talking about other exploits that KI has yet to fix is whataboutism and therefore irrelevant.



      The people porting in had no idea what was happening.

      Highly unlikely. They knew something was up. These were not random friends, they were a part of Atmoplex's spoiler community. He was streaming the game. After watching some of the banned player's videos, they openly say they saw that the Atmoplex had posted about the final boss and they volunteered to join in for the fight. I lol'd when in Atmoplex's video he said "they did not have any knowledge that an exploit was used and could not have possibly guessed it either." Did these community members just think that the infamous data miners had magically quested their way through the world at lightspeed? Don't patronize me.



      Players porting in are exploiting too.

      Does porting in to a friend that has exploited = exploit itself? That sounds like a hard case to argue for. It seems to me the two parties are talking about different things when they mean "exploit" in this context. For Atmoplex, the exploit was the cheat itself that allowed him to jump to the final boss. For Ratbeard, and presumably KI at this point, the exploit was jumping to the final boss without questing through the world. I would tend to favor the former, though I understand KI's position.



      It was done in the test realm. No harm no foul.

      This, I believe, is the Atomoplex's strongest case against the punishments by far. All the other arguments that the Atmoplex and friends are trying to pull out are, in my opinion, middling to garbage tier. Nothing was really gained or lost, and live realm progress wasn't made, so it's all good right?



      As far as the ban on Atmoplex's exploiter account, I agree. Banhammer. The other players... maybe not? It's difficult to know where the burden of proof lies. I think it might be up to the players to show that they did not know what they were getting into, otherwise KI can just cast them off as piggybacking on their exploit buddy. And, so far, I have not seen anything that sways me to thinking the players were ignorant of the situation.

      But the more important question is should these bans extend to live realm and other KI games? I don't know if I would go that far. Maybe take away their test realm privileges for a while and that's it. The fact that only some were banned is an odd detail that I don't think we have all the information on.
      Last edited by Cosmos; 11-15-21 at 10:47:41 PM.
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