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    1. #1
      GOOZEKING's Avatar
        GOOZEKING is offline Initiate Wizard

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      Is there a way to “CHANGE” PVE

      I think we can all agree for the most part that the main goal of PVE is to blade a lot or trap a lot then Hit, sometimes we don’t even have to blade when facing mobs. Essentially doing high damage hits is key because it’s easier and more efficient way of doing questing… it’s also some what boring. My question is do you guys think there is a way to change the enemies or our own characters in a way where we no longer go through this and maybe battles take more thought OR do you not care and like the way PVE is where it’s just buff a person then let them hit?

    2. #2
      Torpzun26's Avatar
        Torpzun26 is offline Journeyman Wizard

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        •  Cole Duskhaven
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      Re: Is there a way to “CHANGE” PVE

      This can't be solved with one simple step, but I think the most important thing would be the dismantling of buffstacking. Buffstacking is so effective that it is not only the best way to deal with enemies, but the only way to do so. The current idea I have for going about this would be that you can only use one Blade and one Trap (per enemy) for your attack. You can still stack buffs, but it would just be limited to one Blade, one Trap, a Global, and an Aura. Buffstacking would still be powerful but hopefully not "one-shot everything" powerful.

      Next, promote small and mid-cost hits. Change the damage-per-pip formula to no longer be consistent for each school. Instead, give small and mid-cost attacks better DPP than high-cost hits, but make sure that those high-cost attacks still have better damage overall. You can still buff these attacks; Globals and Auras being especially great at doing so. With this strategy you can chip away at your enemy while also providing utilities that may be a part of the attacks you cast. These spells would also need some tweaks to make their utility effects more interactive, and each school would need access to several different attacks like these. There's a lot of this in Beastmoon, with effects that clear away certain kinds of hanging effects such as Shields or Traps, some of them giving you a bonus for doing so. Not only does this increased interactivity give wizards and enemies alike a more natural counter to buffstacking, it also makes combat fun.

      And finally, expand the enemies' spell repertoire to include generic defensive cards that they consider using when they notice that the wizards are about to unleash a powerful attack. I've gone over this in more detail in this post, but the main thing is that they need to do more than just spamming random Weaknesses. Give Tower Shield to most bosses, just not Ice ones. There are a lot of different ways to counter buffs, and by giving bosses 2-3 of them it would make battles much more interesting. Also, important, but mobs should never have any defensive cards unless they are with a boss. Mob fights would just become more annoying if they could spam Weakness/Tower Shield/Disarm.

      There would be more changes to make than just those three things, but they're the primary things. For example, with a hard cap of only one Blade per attack, Balanceblade becomes useless since if you wanna support someone else's attack you can just use a TC school blade instead. So make Balanceblade 35% to make up for this. Less offensive schools like Ice and Life have trouble getting enough damage out in a reasonable time despite being the more defensive schools? Give them some new options for offense. One example would be to give Ice a mid-costed attack that gave them a Frost Counter (for lack of a better name), as well as a high-cost attack that deals more damage the more Frost Counters that wizard has. With enough of these counters, that attack would be one of the strongest attacks in the game, but the Ice Wizard has to work to get to that point. And maybe some Life attacks could do more damage if you have a Healing Overtime up when you use them. Maybe Balance could have new Balance attacks that deal non-Balance damage. Like a Balance Spell that does Fire damage, another that does Storm damage. This lets them use cards like Elemental Blade and Trap for triple the value without spending the entire card on one Hydra (which wouldn't work with this revamp but shh this is an example).

    3. #3
      GOOZEKING's Avatar
        GOOZEKING is offline Initiate Wizard

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        •  Zachary rubyflame
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        •  130
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        •  Fire
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      Re: Is there a way to “CHANGE” PVE

      Quote Originally Posted by Torpzun26 View Post
      This can't be solved with one simple step, but I think the most important thing would be the dismantling of buffstacking. Buffstacking is so effective that it is not only the best way to deal with enemies, but the only way to do so. The current idea I have for going about this would be that you can only use one Blade and one Trap (per enemy) for your attack. You can still stack buffs, but it would just be limited to one Blade, one Trap, a Global, and an Aura. Buffstacking would still be powerful but hopefully not "one-shot everything" powerful.

      Next, promote small and mid-cost hits. Change the damage-per-pip formula to no longer be consistent for each school. Instead, give small and mid-cost attacks better DPP than high-cost hits, but make sure that those high-cost attacks still have better damage overall. You can still buff these attacks; Globals and Auras being especially great at doing so. With this strategy you can chip away at your enemy while also providing utilities that may be a part of the attacks you cast. These spells would also need some tweaks to make their utility effects more interactive, and each school would need access to several different attacks like these. There's a lot of this in Beastmoon, with effects that clear away certain kinds of hanging effects such as Shields or Traps, some of them giving you a bonus for doing so. Not only does this increased interactivity give wizards and enemies alike a more natural counter to buffstacking, it also makes combat fun.

      And finally, expand the enemies' spell repertoire to include generic defensive cards that they consider using when they notice that the wizards are about to unleash a powerful attack. I've gone over this in more detail in this post, but the main thing is that they need to do more than just spamming random Weaknesses. Give Tower Shield to most bosses, just not Ice ones. There are a lot of different ways to counter buffs, and by giving bosses 2-3 of them it would make battles much more interesting. Also, important, but mobs should never have any defensive cards unless they are with a boss. Mob fights would just become more annoying if they could spam Weakness/Tower Shield/Disarm.

      There would be more changes to make than just those three things, but they're the primary things. For example, with a hard cap of only one Blade per attack, Balanceblade becomes useless since if you wanna support someone else's attack you can just use a TC school blade instead. So make Balanceblade 35% to make up for this. Less offensive schools like Ice and Life have trouble getting enough damage out in a reasonable time despite being the more defensive schools? Give them some new options for offense. One example would be to give Ice a mid-costed attack that gave them a Frost Counter (for lack of a better name), as well as a high-cost attack that deals more damage the more Frost Counters that wizard has. With enough of these counters, that attack would be one of the strongest attacks in the game, but the Ice Wizard has to work to get to that point. And maybe some Life attacks could do more damage if you have a Healing Overtime up when you use them. Maybe Balance could have new Balance attacks that deal non-Balance damage. Like a Balance Spell that does Fire damage, another that does Storm damage. This lets them use cards like Elemental Blade and Trap for triple the value without spending the entire card on one Hydra (which wouldn't work with this revamp but shh this is an example).
      Thanks, you had some good ideas. Problem of course is that they spent the last year + already dealing with dpp to make them balanced and don’t think they will change them again. Also, the 1 blade per enemy is good but I feel like that just makes the battle longer just for the sake to be longer and not bc of anything else and I don’t think that will work either bc people will get upset. There is also a balance that needs to be made where battles don’t become too difficult like storm titan

    4. #4
      Willowdreamer's Avatar
        Willowdreamer is offline W101C Team Leader

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      Re: Is there a way to “CHANGE” PVE

      This is one of those age-old debates between casual players who play the game for the story and aesthetics and the combat-focused who are seeking increasing challenge as they progress. Changing PVE almost always benefits one side and disappoints the other, and making battles too complicated can sometimes exacerbate the differences when the two types of players are forced to team up and try to cooperate.

      Be careful what you wish for, we may just get it.

      Watchtower Hall crafted 7/21/10 -- Guides: Crafting Stations, here -- Crafted Grizzleheim Housing Items here -- Mirkholm Keep Ore/Diamonds here -- Cave of Solitude Black Lotus here

    5. #5
      GOOZEKING's Avatar
        GOOZEKING is offline Initiate Wizard

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        •  Zachary rubyflame
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        •  130
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        •  Empyrea
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        •  Fire
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        •  queen xxena
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      Re: Is there a way to “CHANGE” PVE

      Quote Originally Posted by Willowdreamer View Post
      This is one of those age-old debates between casual players who play the game for the story and aesthetics and the combat-focused who are seeking increasing challenge as they progress. Changing PVE almost always benefits one side and disappoints the other, and making battles too complicated can sometimes exacerbate the differences when the two types of players are forced to team up and try to cooperate.

      Be careful what you wish for, we may just get it.

      It’s hard because I don’t know how to fix it you don’t wanna make them too hard but you also don’t want to make them brainless battles will you just blade and then hit. I wonder what the middle ground is

    6. #6
      Phenoixblizzard's Avatar
        Phenoixblizzard is offline Adept Wizard

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      Re: Is there a way to “CHANGE” PVE

      Most people will blade then hit using the strongest enchanted spell they have. Sometimes they might even pull from their TC for a pre-enchanted hit to speed up a fight. Let's also not forget they sometimes might throw on a feint just to make sure it kills. Maybe if people stopped relying on enchanted hits so much that'll make some of the fights a little harder? Also, less reliance on feints would make fights a little more challenging (at least for those who are too used to using them).
      Wizards vs Bosses


    7. #7
      Torpzun26's Avatar
        Torpzun26 is offline Journeyman Wizard

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      Re: Is there a way to “CHANGE” PVE

      Quote Originally Posted by GOOZEKING View Post
      Thanks, you had some good ideas. Problem of course is that they spent the last year + already dealing with dpp to make them balanced and don’t think they will change them again. Also, the 1 blade per enemy is good but I feel like that just makes the battle longer just for the sake to be longer and not bc of anything else and I don’t think that will work either bc people will get upset. There is also a balance that needs to be made where battles don’t become too difficult like storm titan
      Yep, another thing is that enemy health will need to be nerfed again. Bosses with around 10-15k health for max level aren't too bad, but the bosses who have like 40k+ health or Storm Trident needing 30k+ 3x will definitely need a nerf. Those battles are impossible to do without buffstacking, and the purpose of these changes is to introduce new ways to win battles.

      I'm also not quite asking for battles to become super complicated or difficult, just that there's multiple attack plans for each school instead of Just One and a larger focus on what's happening in the battle to make combat more dynamic.

    8. #8
      Zarin64's Avatar
        Zarin64 is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Re: Is there a way to “CHANGE” PVE

      They can try all kinds of functional spells working better against some specific enemies, but that would create a different game. My problem with most attack spells is that they are single minded: just hit. Spells with secondary effects, such as accuracy or damage debuff, blade removal, shield stealing etc. are few and far between, and are rarely too useful. Hammer of Thor is a unique example of something really different and having its uses - in debuff-heavy places like Efreets, Ra, Bad Juju (from that bull at Baba Yaga's), Gladiator etc.
      I would like to see spells with built-in armor piercing (at the expense of the damage and/or losing it when enchanted for damage), ones adding a stun shield to the caster or leaving an aura stackable with Star schools ones. But again - it would be a different game...
      My wizards: Corwin Swiftcatcher (Death), Alexandra Winterflower (Ice), Darby Firebreeze (Fire), Katie Wildheart (Storm), Heather (Life), Sarah LionHeart (Myth).

    9. #9
      GOOZEKING's Avatar
        GOOZEKING is offline Initiate Wizard

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      Re: Is there a way to “CHANGE” PVE

      It’s such a complicated topic bc say they have every boss/minion tower shield or weakness more and say if it’s the same round that you hit. All those blades and traps gonna go down the drain and ppl will be upset. Another thing that I thought of, solo players. They have to rely on that big blade and trap to hit tactic bc if they don’t then most likely are gonna get killed by the boss and his minions who have been hitting you every round as you set up your attack. Ugh, but the current way of PVE is just so boring. Blade, blade, trap, hit.

    10. #10
      Dylan Windwalker's Avatar
        Dylan Windwalker is offline Legendary Wizard

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      Re: Is there a way to “CHANGE” PVE

      I think there will be a time when there will be mobs that do cheats, not difficult cheats that would kill you but some that are pesky or annoying. Perhaps mobs that are side quest only have even more difficult cheats. It will eventually be the case I feel like because as Ki releases new worlds each year, they're running out of ideas where they could implement an increase to difficulty in result of a later world. I doubt highly that this would be in this year's world though. I'm pretty sure this year's world would simply consist of high probability of Ai's using shields first turn (particularly with Ice mobs and tower shields) and extremely low multipliers due to high block (or high block chance) so criticals won't work. That already makes first turn or second turn kills difficult unless you're farming with a team. If your farming with a team, then everything should be easy because that's just the nature of working together (something that Ki is harnessing already with wisp bonuses).

      But the player base no matter what is still probably going to do the same low pip AoEs no matter what happens, that's just something that we just have to accept. It's the number of times players will do it is going to change based on block/health/(eventually)cheats.

      For example, perhaps the 2022 world will have mobs that can only be defeated by a DoT (or two hit spell like minotaur) because of some sort of cheat, schools like storm will simply have to rely on others to do the killing for them (something any on person has to learn, that they cannot do everything by themselves).

      Signature created by Expelliarmus in Blue Nouveau Designs, thanks!
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