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    1. #1
      Pegasus Unbound's Avatar
        Pegasus Unbound is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Cool What is acceptable?

      Recently, there have been threads and posts that, using mean spirited attacks, try to promote discussions on some valid topics. I do no know if this is bad behavior, thoughtlessness or just simply an attempt to hide the attack behind a "red herring" story in an attempt to just be hateful.

      Central is supposed to be a safe POSITIVE place where people of all ages share and discuss their love of W101, not attack each other on a personal level. I know my own thoughts on this, and I know from all the years what makes Central a great place, but instead I will simply share a special story. After that, it is up to you all to decide what is right or not, because it is moments like these that decide where our future lies. I think this is something that really needs to be discussed (In a positive and constructive manner) as we look forward to the coming years.


      @Jester, @Willowdreamer and all the other moderators...I think your own feedback on this matter is vital for everyone to better understand the heart of Central.

      Thank you for taking the time to read this.
      Last edited by Pegasus Unbound; 8-16-21 at 12:13:32 PM.


    2. #2
      Dylan Windwalker's Avatar
        Dylan Windwalker is offline Legendary Wizard

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      Re: What is acceptable?

      I find it strange that I never see Most of the Site's Moderators post anything besides Official Central Threads (like the one they're having for Central's birthday). I don't know what their thoughts on certain topics whether it's something not too serious like one of my threads or something more serious like the Sparck Thread, it'd be nice to hear their thoughts... that is if they're even in the site at all. It's true that there's not much activity in Central, which reduces activities that could be malicious or mean-spirited, but that isn't any reason not to be present or contributive. There's much to discuss here and your feedback is important

      I wouldn't exactly say a lot of this site is really mean-spirited, it's ok to express dissatisfaction and it's ok to be critical as long as it's taken as criticism. Pertaining to the Sparck Thread, it's clear that a lot of people are very much dissatisfied with the minimal knowledge about the game itself (as of the time when this video was compiled/published) and a lot of that is legitimate concern for the game. If an employee of central doesn't have a basic understanding of the game's mechanics nor of it's general community within the game itself, then it likely follows that the employee cannot adequately address the problems of the game or it's community (errr at least, the employee could have done better than they have been doing already, there are very few complaints about Sparck's job as Community manager but perhaps he could have done better than he did). People care, which is why they have to be honest.

      I think the majority of members of Central are good people, better people than the people I might encounter in real life. I've never personally had a bad discussion or interaction here in Central (but then again I've never been directly targeted for such things) and I don't expect to be from anybody here. The site usually addresses matters fairly professionally with a few jokes and pokes (mainly at Ki, but I don't think they're that serious)...
      Last edited by Dylan Windwalker; 8-16-21 at 1:11:06 PM.

      Signature created by Expelliarmus in Blue Nouveau Designs, thanks!
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    3. #3
      Pegasus Unbound's Avatar
        Pegasus Unbound is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Cool Re: What is acceptable?

      Quote Originally Posted by Dylan Windwalker View Post
      I find it strange that I never see Most of the Site's Moderators post anything besides Official Central Threads (like the one they're having for Central's birthday). I don't know what their thoughts on certain topics whether it's something not too serious like one of my threads or something more serious like the Sparck Thread, it'd be nice to hear their thoughts... that is if they're even in the site at all. It's true that there's not much activity in Central, which reduces activities that could be malicious or mean-spirited, but that isn't any reason not to be present or contributive. There's much to discuss here and your feedback is important

      I wouldn't exactly say a lot of this site is really mean-spirited, it's ok to express dissatisfaction and it's ok to be critical as long as it's taken as criticism. Pertaining to the Sparck Thread, it's clear that a lot of people are very much dissatisfied with the minimal knowledge about the game itself (as of the time when this video was compiled/published) and a lot of that is legitimate concern for the game. If an employee of central doesn't have a basic understanding of the game's mechanics nor of it's general community within the game itself, then it likely follows that the employee cannot adequately address the problems of the game or it's community (errr at least, the employee could have done better than they have been doing already, there are very few complaints about Sparck's job as Community manager but perhaps he could have done better than he did). People care, which is why they have to be honest.

      I think the majority of members of Central are good people, better people than the people I might encounter in real life. I've never personally had a bad discussion or interaction here in Central (but then again I've never been directly targeted for such things) and I don't expect to be from anybody here. The site usually addresses matters fairly professionally with a few jokes and pokes (mainly at Ki, but I don't think they're that serious)...
      I agree, but there is one thing about your post I want to point out to make mys case about the @Sparck thread in particular. The issue is a valid one, but even now, in your post, you are the one who pointed/singled him out AGAIN rehashing something that has already caused hurtful feelings and controversy. In that thread, had people just discussed the issue WITHOUT repeatedly harping and repeatedly pointing fingers specifically at @Sparck, it would have been an entirely different matter. But now, even away from that thread you single him out again. I ask you, is this really necessary? Can't a point be made without singling a specific person out trying to humiliate them as the OP of that thread did? I am not trying to defend @Sparck specifically, but in this example, I am trying to defend and respect the individual from personal attacks that go on and on.

      This thread is not "just" about the thread you mentioned, but rather about the very way some people have started to always criticize and start fights instead of proper, meaningful, respectful and constructive discussions. There are so many things we all need to learn respect for. Look around us at all the hatred and hate based violence in the real world; do you really want to bring that thoughtless anger and hatred into this place we come to relax, enjoy and grow in our love for the game in safety?

      People do care, and that includes @Jester, the moderators and even KI. The problem is after a while, the constant attacks, hate and sheer nastiness of the way some people communicate makes them numb and want to avoid having any communication with such people at all, and eventually ANY people at all. My Grandmother used to say that "You can attract more bees with honey than with vinegar". I think this is something many people have forgotten in an age where they communicate on a faceless unemotional computer and not face-to-face where they would normally see a reaction to their words, and learn from them.


    4. #4
      Arwen Mythweaver's Avatar
        Arwen Mythweaver is offline Journeyman Wizard

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      Re: What is acceptable?

      I will start by saying this. Iíve never posted on a serious forum before. Partly because Iím introverted, and partly because after a year Iím only beginning to understand the political currents that are woven into this community.
      However, Iíve read all the posts, all the arguments, all the positive comments, the Sparck incident, all of it.
      In spite of everything, after THREE posts here, weíve managed to descend to the place that weíre trying to avoid.

      I can see exactly the points that both of you are trying to make. I agree with some and not others.
      However, weíre coming close to going down the rabbit hole once again.

      Perhaps we could start this over from the beginning. Most people here do care for each other and the site. Lurking for a year has made me see that.
      Thatís my constructive criticism. I guess, being a new poster, you can take it for what itís worth.
      Last edited by Arwen Mythweaver; 8-16-21 at 3:27:25 PM.
      ~All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us~







    5. #5
      Pegasus Unbound's Avatar
        Pegasus Unbound is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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        •  Balance
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        •  Dragons and MORE Dragons.
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      Cool Re: What is acceptable?

      Quote Originally Posted by Arwen Mythweaver View Post
      I will start by saying this. Iíve never posted on a serious forum before. Partly because Iím introverted, and partly because after a year Iím only beginning to understand the political currents that are woven into this community.
      However, Iíve read all the posts, all the arguments, all the positive comments, the Sparck incident, all of it.
      In spite of everything, after THREE posts here, weíve managed to descend to the place that weíre trying to avoid.

      I can see exactly the points that both of you are trying to make. I agree with some and not others.
      However, weíre coming close to going down the rabbit hole once again.

      Perhaps we could start this over from the beginning. Most people here do care for each other and the site. Lurking for a year has made me see that.
      Thatís my constructive criticism. I guess, being a new poster, you can take it for what itís worth.
      Thank you so much! You are completely correct, in my attempt to show an example of my concerns based on the response, I came way to close to doing the same thing I was trying to prevent. It just goes too show how easy it is to go the wrong way even when not trying to point fingers, etc. and I own up to that 100%.

      What you have pointed out is vital for us all to keep in mind as we strive to be better.

      Thank you again!

      Hugs1


    6. #6
      Falling Emeralds's Avatar
        Falling Emeralds is offline Adept Wizard

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      Re: What is acceptable?

      I couldn't bring myself to comment on the thread everyone is referencing because it made me feel sick. How much an employee should know about the game is a valid discussion, but that wasn't the intent of the thread/video in question. Instead, it appeared to be created to personally attack, insult, and demean, rather than offer constructive criticism. I am what could be considered a "lurker" on the site, but for what it is worth, what I read yesterday made me reconsider if this community has the kind of attitude that I want to keep being a part of.

    7. #7
      Willowdreamer's Avatar
        Willowdreamer is offline W101C Team Leader

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      Re: What is acceptable?

      When I saw the title of the thread I was mentioned in, I thought it was in the Site Feedback section and perhaps it was going to be a discussion for updating the Forum Rules (which has happened from time to time). Then, I saw it was posted in Off-Topic, so then I figured it would be something different.

      To me, Central is definitely a family friendly forum for discussion of the game Wizard101 and related content. Whether or not the word "positive" is encompassed in our Forum Rules, I don't know. The Rules do specifically prohibit personal attacks and flaming. Not all discussions are upbeat and positive all of the time -- people also want to have a safe place to vent their frustration, give feedback to Kingsisle on unpopular decisions, and even give examples of unbelievable behavior from others in the game, etc.

      Sometimes, what is acceptable is a judgement call. Offensive is also a subjective term. Those of us who have been here for a long time can remember many discussions that walk the line, and sometimes tip the wrong way. Not everyone has the vocabulary to voice their concerns and opinion in such a way that someone else cannot possibly take it the wrong way. Sarcasm is one tool that often backfires because it is misunderstood. Strong feelings make themselves known.

      Trying to maintain a 100% positive-feedback-only forum sounds like a noble goal, but it is also an impossible one. I, myself, have days where it is very difficult to think of a positive spin for what I want to say. Some discussions I purposely stay out of, and others I try to post a reasonable "here's another way to think of this" type of post -- sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. If all of the nice, polite, positive members choose to stay out of difficult discussions... well, then, we see what happens.

      Ultimately, we DO want members to feel free to participate in discussions, and we want them to follow the Forum Rules. If they don't, we have the Report option, and we go from there.

      Watchtower Hall crafted 7/21/10 -- Guides: Crafting Stations, here -- Crafted Grizzleheim Housing Items here -- Mirkholm Keep Ore/Diamonds here -- Cave of Solitude Black Lotus here

    8. #8
      Pegasus Unbound's Avatar
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      Cool Re: What is acceptable?

      Before we get more fixated on the other thread, I would like to get back to the main issue.

      Yes, there are the TOS, but to be honest, I think sometimes we need to be reminded of them not in a "techno-babble" format, but a conversational format that can be discussed constructively. Although they are rules which we all have to follow if we are going to use a service, sometimes we are so fixated on the rule, we loose track of its purpose because it is presented as a rule/or law which everyone (in one way or another) will resent IF they do not truly understand and appreciate the goal and purpose.

      Congeniality (Being nice and respectful) is disapearing, and I want to bring it back not only to Central, but to communication in general. That is the goal of this thread. To discuss and find a better way to communicate to each other is the ultimate goal.

      If there are aspects of the TOS or anything that need to be discussed, that is something that is a welcome discussion IF it is kept constructive. We have seen many events in the last few months that have demonstrated a need for change and @Jester has made those changes accordingly (Such as the KI Pride events bringing adjustments to the Central moderator guides). Growth and progress can not happen without constructive and open discussion to make sure the "rules" grow and evolve with the times; but let's not fall to lower levels of being mean and attacking.

      So,now that we are (I hope) back on track for the main goal of this thread, let's get these important discussions going.


    9. #9
      Cosmos's Avatar
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      Re: What is acceptable?

      Quote Originally Posted by Willowdreamer View Post
      When I saw the title of the thread I was mentioned in, I thought it was in the Site Feedback section and perhaps it was going to be a discussion for updating the Forum Rules (which has happened from time to time). Then, I saw it was posted in Off-Topic, so then I figured it would be something different.

      To me, Central is definitely a family friendly forum for discussion of the game Wizard101 and related content. Whether or not the word "positive" is encompassed in our Forum Rules, I don't know. The Rules do specifically prohibit personal attacks and flaming. Not all discussions are upbeat and positive all of the time -- people also want to have a safe place to vent their frustration, give feedback to Kingsisle on unpopular decisions, and even give examples of unbelievable behavior from others in the game, etc.

      Sometimes, what is acceptable is a judgement call. Offensive is also a subjective term. Those of us who have been here for a long time can remember many discussions that walk the line, and sometimes tip the wrong way. Not everyone has the vocabulary to voice their concerns and opinion in such a way that someone else cannot possibly take it the wrong way. Sarcasm is one tool that often backfires because it is misunderstood. Strong feelings make themselves known.

      Trying to maintain a 100% positive-feedback-only forum sounds like a noble goal, but it is also an impossible one. I, myself, have days where it is very difficult to think of a positive spin for what I want to say. Some discussions I purposely stay out of, and others I try to post a reasonable "here's another way to think of this" type of post -- sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. If all of the nice, polite, positive members choose to stay out of difficult discussions... well, then, we see what happens.

      Ultimately, we DO want members to feel free to participate in discussions, and we want them to follow the Forum Rules. If they don't, we have the Report option, and we go from there.

      Willow, this is why I love you. You (and really all of the active moderation team) manage to walk the line between immediately shutting down heated debates and encouraging honest criticism and discussion. So many communities I've been a part of have fallen on one side or the other: flame wars breaking out in every other post or people getting silenced because what they said can be cast as mildly "offensive".

      I might even go a bit further than @Dylan Windwalker when he said:

      it's ok to express dissatisfaction and it's ok to be critical
      It's good to do these things. It's healthy to do these things. I realize this may not be a widely held opinion and must be trimmed back on this forum but I personally believe that if I am debating a topic with someone they should throw everything they have at me. Say what you have to say, I will say what I need to say and then together we work through the aftermath.

      Intense perhaps. Conflict, yes definitely. Fighting, not necessarily. I know I haven't been active too much lately, but I have a hard time believing that any part of the forum has transitioned from the former to the later (at least by my standards).

      Conflict is innate to a pluralism of ideas. That's what disagreement is.
      Last edited by Cosmos; 8-16-21 at 7:52:11 PM.
      Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory - Machiavelli // I also write my own stuff ~

    10. #10
      Pegasus Unbound's Avatar
        Pegasus Unbound is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Cool Re: What is acceptable?

      Quote Originally Posted by Willowdreamer View Post
      When I saw the title of the thread I was mentioned in, I thought it was in the Site Feedback section and perhaps it was going to be a discussion for updating the Forum Rules (which has happened from time to time). Then, I saw it was posted in Off-Topic, so then I figured it would be something different.

      To me, Central is definitely a family friendly forum for discussion of the game Wizard101 and related content. Whether or not the word "positive" is encompassed in our Forum Rules, I don't know. The Rules do specifically prohibit personal attacks and flaming. Not all discussions are upbeat and positive all of the time -- people also want to have a safe place to vent their frustration, give feedback to Kingsisle on unpopular decisions, and even give examples of unbelievable behavior from others in the game, etc.

      Sometimes, what is acceptable is a judgement call. Offensive is also a subjective term. Those of us who have been here for a long time can remember many discussions that walk the line, and sometimes tip the wrong way. Not everyone has the vocabulary to voice their concerns and opinion in such a way that someone else cannot possibly take it the wrong way. Sarcasm is one tool that often backfires because it is misunderstood. Strong feelings make themselves known.

      Trying to maintain a 100% positive-feedback-only forum sounds like a noble goal, but it is also an impossible one. I, myself, have days where it is very difficult to think of a positive spin for what I want to say. Some discussions I purposely stay out of, and others I try to post a reasonable "here's another way to think of this" type of post -- sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. If all of the nice, polite, positive members choose to stay out of difficult discussions... well, then, we see what happens.

      Ultimately, we DO want members to feel free to participate in discussions, and we want them to follow the Forum Rules. If they don't, we have the Report option, and we go from there.

      Thank you! As always, you bring a lot of needed clarity and thought to things. As usual, I agree completely with the observations. Everything can't always be roses, sunshine and butterflies; but sometimes it does get unacceptably mean. I staarted this thread in hopes to remind us all (Including myself) to be careful to not cross the line.

      I posted this in off topic since I was not sure if it belonged in site feed back. If you think it belongs in feedback, could you please move it for me?

      I want to thank everyone who has been taking part of this discussion, and I hope we can all keep exploring the issue and building on it. I am learning a lot from you all with each post.


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