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  • Results 1 to 8 of 8
    1. #1
        Orzee is offline Apprentice Wizard

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      Damage / Resist Stat Revamp Thoughts

      Here's the text on the stat changes for reference:

      Affected Stat PvE PvP
      Damage Intersection 150 100
      Damage Limit 200 200
      Resist Intersection 100 50
      Resist Limit 125 70
      I am really disliking KI's approach on separating PvE and PvP and using limit functions to fix this issue.

      I'm not going to go into a whole deep-dive on the issue, but we have flat stats and percentage stats. I was hoping the gear audit would come with the damage/resist audit. Personally, I'd like to see much much smaller percentages and much larger flat stats, like most other games. Flat stats give players the ability to grow while countering each other directly (unlike now, where resist is countered by pierce). 50 flat damage can be countered with 50 flat resist with seemingly no cap (DOTs will be the only real concern). Percentage stats need limits, which should've been imposed with gear. That way the game is balanced in both PvP and PvE (similar level Wizards will have similar stats).

      I think the limit function is another complicated mechanic that requires the least amount of effort in a design and development standpoint, rather than fixing the actual problem. Good mechanics are simple. I shouldn't need a formula or a spreadsheet to figure out how much damage I'm doing. If you are at the top of the limit, there's no room for growth (think about how many people are near-max critical in late-game now). So if you reach 200 damage, you need to grow elsewhere. That's just going to pad the rest of the stats in the future. Flat damage and resist would be a reasonable implementation for growth.

      What are your thoughts on the damage/resist limits? I think the proposed numbers from KI for the limit system are "acceptable" for balance, but I find the implementation uninspired. It's getting to the point where PvP is a different game due to all the rule changes.

    2. #2
      FusionSun's Avatar
        FusionSun is online now Initiate Wizard

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      Re: Damage / Resist Stat Revamp Thoughts

      I personally think the limits are fine, but there needs to be more transparency with what our damage and resist % values actually are now. My Storm, for example, has 170% damage, but the effective % value apparently isn't actually 170%, due to the damage intersection occurring at 150%. I can thus see on my character stat page that I have 170%, but I know that the value isn't really accurate. It would be nice if KI can update our character stat page automatically to reflect the actual values, so that we know what our stats really are. It would be great if we didn't have to wait several months for this, like with the crit/block changes to know what our damage multiplier actually is.

      Your suggestion for how damage/resist should be handled was brought up a while back, but Mattnetic said gear would be too confusing for new players if there were two different resist stats and two different damage stats on gear. :/

      I'm looking at the update notes again as I type this up, and I really don't like how this section is described there. There's literally no transparency given on how this limit function works after you reach the intersection value. Is it based on your level? Does your effective % drop as you level up? What even is the formula that is used to calculate our damage %? Who even knows lol.

      I thought they would handle damage/pierce/resist by converting all the % values into ratings like they did with the shadow pip stat, but I guess they chose something different. I'm wondering if this limit change is temporary while they work on the actual changes, since they said they didn't bother touching Pierce this update.

    3. #3
        Orzee is offline Apprentice Wizard

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        •  Fire
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      Re: Damage / Resist Stat Revamp Thoughts

      Quote Originally Posted by FusionSun View Post
      I personally think the limits are fine, but there needs to be more transparency with what our damage and resist % values actually are now. My Storm, for example, has 170% damage, but the effective % value apparently isn't actually 170%, due to the damage intersection occurring at 150%. I can thus see on my character stat page that I have 170%, but I know that the value isn't really accurate. It would be nice if KI can update our character stat page automatically to reflect the actual values, so that we know what our stats really are. It would be great if we didn't have to wait several months for this, like with the crit/block changes to know what our damage multiplier actually is.
      Your suggestion for how damage/resist should be handled was brought up a while back, but Mattnetic said gear would be too confusing for new players if there were two different resist stats and two different damage stats on gear. :/
      I'm looking at the update notes again as I type this up, and I really don't like how this section is described there. There's literally no transparency given on how this limit function works after you reach the intersection value. Is it based on your level? Does your effective % drop as you level up? What even is the formula that is used to calculate our damage %? Who even knows lol.
      I thought they would handle damage/pierce/resist by converting all the % values into ratings like they did with the shadow pip stat, but I guess they chose something different. I'm wondering if this limit change is temporary while they work on the actual changes, since they said they didn't bother touching Pierce this update.
      Well said! That Mattnetic quote disappoints me though.

      One issue you've just mentioned is "in what context am I looking at my stats?" Your 170% damage is in 2 different values (PvP and PvE) and it's impossible to know. They didn't post the limit function, which lacks the transparency we need (maybe there'll be a Dev Diary). Charlie didn't post anything on FinalBastion.

      I get that gear can get confusing, but there's ways around that. They could do flat resist until Level 20. Heck, they could do similar to Pirate where all gear and player stats are flat and combat modifiers (i.e. spells) are in percentages. Then shields would be more useful, regardless of level. Personally, I think it's more confusing when you aren't given the information on how the systems work. Maybe they could implement an "actual damage" calculation with the new UI changes when you hover over a spell.

      What about players that optimize? It's not uncommon to see players with "max damage" or "max critical" which originally had the trade-off of weaker stats elsewhere. Most players are going to be well-rounded, which removes uniqueness. My storm used to have 800+ critical and now sits comfortably closer to 700. I traded it for damage. Now that I'm at 168% damage, which I currently just tested to be ~162% in Test Realm, I'm going to look to other stats to pad. I'm not against diversifying stats, but what is storm wizard excelling at then? Why pick a storm when an ice can do similar damage (maybe 20% less) but with double the health and double the resist?

      Overall though, the change is going to happen and it's... eh. Immunity is still a thing in PvE and I'm not sure how I feel about that. Many people will embrace the changes and gameplay will be fine. I'm glad PvP gets the fix they desperately needed.
      Last edited by Orzee; 4-5-21 at 2:10:35 PM. Reason: duplicated reply

    4. #4
      edward sky's Avatar
        edward sky is offline Journeyman Wizard

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      Re: Damage / Resist Stat Revamp Thoughts

      We all expected this so I'm not too put off by it all, I'm still pleased that they learned to adjust pve/pvp separately at this point.

      As another wizard stated though, with these changes I hope it reflects on our stat page (E.X gear: 175% true damage: 162%) and then I would say all is well... Otherwise they're better off just changing it to a flat number as well that affects our damage in the same way. But in a formula that's super simple for kids to understand too. (E.X 100 damage stats is more or less 1% before a curve at 150 or wherever)

      Edward sky/Life/102/
      And may the odds be ever in your favour.

    5. #5
      JaredSpellFrost's Avatar
        JaredSpellFrost is online now Grandmaster Wizard

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      Thumbs down Re: Damage / Resist Stat Revamp Thoughts

      Quote Originally Posted by Orzee View Post
      I shouldn't need a formula or a spreadsheet to figure out how much damage I'm doing.
      Exactly. KingsIsle is forgetting their roots with these all of these complicated formulas and stat audits. Wizard101 is first and foremost a "kid's game," and they therefore need to cater to the lowest denominator- 10 year-olds. I doubt that children will be able to comprehend these complicated stat updates when I'm struggling to understand them myself!


      That's not to say their solution won't make the game balanced. It certainly has the potential to, but whether it is capable of doing so I am unable to tell. But the problem is that it needs to be dumbed down so that anyone can intuitively understand it, not just people with mathematics degrees!


      I should also mention, these universal stat reworks are a bane to school identity. This rework NEEDS to be catered to each school, a blanket function will just erase school identity!


      "Yet like a bad case of athlete's foot you just kept coming back." -Cosmos
      . . . with Persistence, Victory is assured.




    6. #6
        Mayonnaisinator is offline Wiki Master
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      Re: Damage / Resist Stat Revamp Thoughts

      Quote Originally Posted by JaredSpellFrost View Post
      Exactly. KingsIsle is forgetting their roots with these all of these complicated formulas and stat audits. Wizard101 is first and foremost a "kid's game," and they therefore need to cater to the lowest denominator- 10 year-olds. I doubt that children will be able to comprehend these complicated stat updates when I'm struggling to understand them myself!
      And a kid will see the exact same thing as before - a bigger number is better. No 10 year old was calculating out their hits using their damage, or trying to absolutely min max their gear. You're correct that kids probably wouldn't be able to understand the stat rework formulae, but that's because they don't need to.

    7. #7
      FusionSun's Avatar
        FusionSun is online now Initiate Wizard

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      Re: Damage / Resist Stat Revamp Thoughts

      I thought about this change some more, and does anyone else feel like limits destroy the whole purpose of leveling up? Once you get past that 150% intersection value for PVE, you're never going to be able to reach that 200% damage value. Assuming that the formula to calculate damage percent is based on your level, then you're going to need higher and higher damage in order to maintain the percent you once had at a lower level. We then see that as you level up:

      Health: goes up
      Damage: Doesn't go up, needs to be maintained
      Resist: Doesn't go up, needs to be maintained
      Pierce: KI hasn't raised this stat since 2015.
      Accuracy: Most people have this stat already maxed
      Power Pip Chance: Most people have this stat already maxed
      Pip Conversion: Some room for growth still before people reach 100%
      Critical Multiplier: Doesn't go up, needs to be maintained
      Block: Doesn't go up, needs to be maintained
      Shadow Pip Rating: Needs to be maintained in order for you to receive a shadow pip on round ~3.

      There's literally no room for growth here, so what are we leveling up for? More health and maybe some new spells that we find usable? Limits ruin the whole purpose of leveling up, since you're just getting higher stats in order to maintain the effectiveness you had at a lower level. You're not actually getting "stronger" (ie the damage you deal goes up); literally the only thing improving as you level up is your health.

      I thought Pirate101 handled damage progression really well, where the formula is (I think) damage dealt = your weapon power - enemy resist. You would continuously get stronger as you level up and deal more damage, which makes it actually worth it to do so, AND the formula is pretty easy to understand.

    8. #8
      SeptenaryRavens's Avatar
        SeptenaryRavens is offline Magus Wizard
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      Re: Damage / Resist Stat Revamp Thoughts

      My only worry from the revamp was if going immune would be obsolete. It's good to know that's not the case. I'm happy I can continue to go myth immune while farming the sand squid for amber and agave nectar, or for Tatyana in Upper Halls.

      The damage part is iffy though. Lower leveled wizards will have a harder time actually being affected by the diminishing. Since it appears the 150% intersection is for all levels, a level 140 wizard with 175% damage will be affected, while a level 60 wizard with 110% damage won't be. Screams of power imbalance to me.

      A better idea would be lowering the diminishing point depending on level. Level 1-20 could be 50%, Level 21-40 60%, Level 41-50 70%, Level 51-59 75%, Level 60-89 110%, Level 90-99 115%, 100-109 125%, Level 110-119 135%, Level 120-140 150%.
      Last edited by SeptenaryRavens; 4-5-21 at 9:50:52 PM.




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