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    1. #31
      Eric Stormbringer's Avatar
        Eric Stormbringer is offline Wizard101 US Faculty

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      Re: Jewel Vaults No Longer Tradeable! Why?

      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      When you have a community, and give them a mean to communicate among them and with you, you are supposed to use that mean.

      W101 was born with a forum, where players and devs exchanged. Then devs team changed, and exchanges died. Then a community manager was hired to act as a filter and makes the community happy.

      As much as I understand that this forum is not an official one, I have seen a lot of posts asking the exact same questions on the official one as here, and guess what, they have been treated as explained above.

      Yes I can reach individual devs on other social media, maybe I can even find their phone and give them a call: but that's not how it's meant to be.

      If they change something, it's on their part to communicate to us, either with announcements (in the relative section) or any other mean THEY gave us - not twitter/FB/whatsapp/tinder.

      And again, you don't seem to be willing to take into account the golden rule of trade. ONCE you have given something in exchange of something else - be it time, money, hardiness, whatever has been given to you in return matters - the "that" you gave DOES NOT BELONG TO YOU ANYMORE, or at least not to you alone.
      You are bound to not retract yourself unilaterally; that is the most basic rule to interact in a civilized society.

      That is also the reason a lot of wars started, btw; from the time of salt discovery until today. So yes, it is important, and if we go look for an explanation that is actually due on their part, we are acknowledging their mischief as something that deserve an exchange at equal level. It does not.

      It's like saying to a judge to go and seek the defendant at his house or office in case he had something to tell him in his defense... does that sound logic?


      The fault is on their side, and this is not the first time they do something like that.

      And in the past they have been told this behavior was wrong, and the few times when something changed, the only way to get them to - partially - come back on those decision have been players riots - think the infamous wand from sinbad's if you need a refresh.

      It's always easy to say "you could do this", but let's not forget who started it. And the reasons behind. That all weights on the balance.
      Times change and communication channels with it. I don't know if that's how it is "meant to be", but that is how it is currently. The Devs have decided to use social media as their main communication channel due to it's reach and accessibility. You'll notice that Wizard101's twitter is where they communicate virtually all their main game announcements nowadays with everything from crowns sales to maintenance times.

      You don't have to agree with this- but not utilizing it only works to your disadvantage.

      I don't regard the trade that is being made the same way you do. To me- Wizard 101 is a service not a product- all we are paying for is access. I've written this before and I don't think I could be any clearer than I was back then:

      Name:  Service not Product.PNG
Views: 80
Size:  372.3 KB

      If I go to six flags and they change a favorite ride of mine, they did not betray my trust or steal away something I own- they simply changed the services they offered. At that point my choices become either petitioning for a change or deciding not to utilize their services. I view Wizard101 in the same way.
      Last edited by Eric Stormbringer; 1-23-21 at 4:38:06 PM.

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    2. #32
      Novical's Avatar
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      Re: Jewel Vaults No Longer Tradeable! Why?

      The real reason is to render your Morganthe jewels that you got on your max useless and to strong arm you into buying jewel packs on low level wizards if you want the jewel on a low level wizard.
      Last edited by Novical; 1-23-21 at 10:41:04 PM.

      Novical~A Fancier Way of Saying Noob
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    3. #33
      JaredSpellFrost's Avatar
        JaredSpellFrost is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Exclamation Re: Jewel Vaults No Longer Tradeable! Why?

      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post
      All jokes aside, I think people forget the devs are human. Make a convincing argument and they are often inclined to listen.
      I'm just gonna direct you to this thread I made two years ago... I would say that KingsIsle only takes heed of our pleas when it is in their best monetary interests, but they have disproven this time and time again! The fact of the matter is that KingsIsle doesn't care- throw as many convincing arguments at them as you want, it still won't make a difference.
      Like a fickle God/Goddess from Greek mythology, only rarely do they deign to come down from Mount Olympus to grace us with an answer, a bug patch, an actually wanted addition... But even then they have ulterior motives. After all, it has been shown that with enough force from the fanbase their palace in the clouds can be shaken. Remember the Sinbad scandal and the Crowns Reward Event catastrophe? KingsIsle must keep up a veneer of caring to maintain this "stability," otherwise there would be riots in the Commons!

      So any one person may throw as many compelling arguments at KingsIsle as they want, but the sad truth is that it will take the whole community to move this game anywhere. Unless it is beneficial to KingsIsle's tattered reputation, it is unlikely any change will come of threads like these.


      This subversive change to the Jewel Vault is telling, for a few reasons. The fact that this seemingly small change was not in any official update notes tells me that KingsIsle is purposefully trying to keep this under wraps.
      "Oh but Jared, maybe it just slipped through the cracks?" No. There is absolutely no sensible reason why a Jewel Vault should be untradeable, which is a sign of sinister motives. Plus, this kind of sneaky deets has happened on multiple occasions before too! For instance, the removal of pre-enchanting Spellemental spells, and more recently, making certain craftable TC untradeable.



      Devils advocate here.
      It could quite possibly be that the Devs, while being the ones responsible for implementing these unwelcome changes, are not in charge here. Upper management and Marketing could be the puppeteering hand behind all of this, what with their irrational lust for the lucre of money.


      Hopefully once the MGI deal is complete we'll see conditions improve, but as it stands good luck in getting KingsIsle to listen to you!

      Last edited by JaredSpellFrost; 1-23-21 at 11:18:35 PM.

      "Yet like a bad case of athlete's foot you just kept coming back." -Cosmos
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    4. #34
      Eric Stormbringer's Avatar
        Eric Stormbringer is offline Wizard101 US Faculty

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      Re: Jewel Vaults No Longer Tradeable! Why?

      Quote Originally Posted by JaredSpellFrost View Post
      I'm just gonna direct you to this thread I made two years ago... I would say that KingsIsle only takes heed of our pleas when it is in their best monetary interests, but they have disproven this time and time again! The fact of the matter is that KingsIsle doesn't care- throw as many convincing arguments at them as you want, it still won't make a difference.
      Like a fickle God/Goddess from Greek mythology, only rarely do they deign to come down from Mount Olympus to grace us with an answer, a bug patch, an actually wanted addition... But even then they have ulterior motives. After all, it has been shown that with enough force from the fanbase their palace in the clouds can be shaken. Remember the Sinbad scandal and the Crowns Reward Event catastrophe? KingsIsle must keep up a veneer of caring to maintain this "stability," otherwise there would be riots in the Commons!

      So any one person may throw as many compelling arguments at KingsIsle as they want, but the sad truth is that it will take the whole community to move this game anywhere. Unless it is beneficial to KingsIsle's tattered reputation, it is unlikely any change will come of threads like these.


      This subversive change to the Jewel Vault is telling, for a few reasons. The fact that this seemingly small change was not in any official update notes tells me that KingsIsle is purposefully trying to keep this under wraps.
      "Oh but Jared, maybe it just slipped through the cracks?" No. There is absolutely no sensible reason why a Jewel Vault should be untradeable, which is a sign of sinister motives. Plus, this kind of sneaky deets has happened on multiple occasions before too! For instance, the removal of pre-enchanting Spellemental spells, and more recently, making certain craftable TC untradeable.



      Devils advocate here.
      It could quite possibly be that the Devs, while being the ones responsible for implementing these unwelcome changes, are not in charge here. Upper management and Marketing could be the puppeteering hand behind all of this, what with their irrational lust for the lucre of money.


      Hopefully once the MGI deal is complete we'll see conditions improve, but as it stands good luck in getting KingsIsle to listen to you!

      These kinds of broad conspiracy theories are easily disproven. I can show you at least 10 times where KI has directly listened to player requests. The fact that KI didn't change their marketing apparatus in response to players who dislike microtransactions does not mean they don't listen and it's bad faith nonsense to pretend otherwise.

      Just because you can't think of a non-subversive reason to add no trade to the vault doesn't mean there is some sinister ulterior motive behind it. As I said it could have been something as simple as preventing players from transferring no trade jewels between characters. Inability to pre-enchant spellemental spells wasn't a hidden change lol- it was widely discussed on twitter to the point where I even wrote an article on it on another site.

      I do wish the update notes were more robust so as to pre-empt this kind of bad-faith position. However, I'm under no illusion that would prevent this type of theory from spreading. Afterall, I have shown you examples that directly disprove your views repeatedly and you simply pretend those counterarguments don't exist and continue parroting the same debunked positions ad infinitum.
      Last edited by Eric Stormbringer; 1-23-21 at 11:48:34 PM.

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    5. #35
      Dylan Windwalker's Avatar
        Dylan Windwalker is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Re: Jewel Vaults No Longer Tradeable! Why?

      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post
      I hope somebody makes the brave next step of asking the Devs through one of the channels of communication that are available.
      But Ericcccccccccccccccccccccc, the universe is going to end if Dylan Windwalker makes a Twitter account just to tell the Wizard101 Devs to make the Jewel Vault Tradeable again...........

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    6. #36
        richardDkht is offline Journeyman Wizard
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      Re: Jewel Vaults No Longer Tradeable! Why?

      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post
      I don't regard the trade that is being made the same way you do. To me- Wizard 101 is a service not a product- all we are paying for is access.
      that is a misunderstanding.

      Technically, the TOS cover what you are paying for with money. And that may well be resumed as "access" and "usage of the services". Whatever they may be.

      But then there is the content that kicks in:

      when you say to someone "if you do this thing, I will give you this other in return", expressly or intrinsically, you are creating a new agreement.

      As much as you are not obliged to create any such content, since people do pay only to access whatever you decide to offer them, the moment the offer is created, it comes with boundaries.

      And unless on that specific agreement you define from start that it will be subjected to change, any deep change will affect the "trust" of people. To make it clear, the fact that you asked a further effort beyond what people paid at first makes the difference.

      let's make an example: A few years ago, a Celestia quest would give Elucidate TC as reward. One day, they decided to modify such quest. Since then, it does not give elucidate anymore.
      Everything is ok there, because when they modified the transaction (=the quest) that only affected NEW questers. According to the new logic you are defending, they would be free to make it retroactive, and delete from our decks all elucidate acquired in that way. THAT would be the breaking of agreement.

      So the transaction where you purchase a pack is separated from the one where you buy the access to the game; the transaction where you ask someone to spend months of their lifetime in order to gather the ingredients needed for a specific item is also different from the one where you sell access to the services.
      The access to the services is the transaction that covers the wandering and casual battling, the trading, and questing. That's all.

      The rest are individual microtransactions embedded in the general content, but separated from it. This is a legal view - stretched, in the case of non-monetized situations - not just an opinion.



      You can disagree; but look around you.. you are alone, there.

      For this is not something just related to W101, the whole world turns because of it.

      Why people tell you "do not go to that shop"? because something bad happened that broke their trust. Why people switch suppliers? Same reason.
      Why do we chose to not return to the same hotel and take a nearby one, in a nice location we visited, for the next Holiday, although they seem to have done everything on the signed paper?
      I could go on and on, the trust agreement is stronger than law, it's a manner of being toward others. It's what we often resume in that very vague "be fair".

      And it is something that you need to teach to children, because it relate to social interaction, whereas a child relates only to selfishness (the "I" being in the middle of the universe rather than part of it.. have a look at some psy books if you want to know more).

      So to maintain the trust agreement should be a holy unspoken rule in a game addressed to kids. And to be honest, it was, in the past W101.

      INSTEAD, since a couple of years ago, our dev team is doing the opposite. they are being "unfair", and try to justify it with silly arguments about the game's survival.

      And to be clear, you can always pull out an argument about the end of the world, to convince people to follow you. It even worked on brexit.

      But the truth is, to have those arguments validated, they would need to produce the technical data that accompain the analysis BEFORE they reach the conclusion, and that was never a thing. Instead they build backward the data based (at least whatever is shown to us) on the decision taken.

      Very easy... but wrong method.

      Well i'm stopping here. I understand you have your reasons, personal or professional, to defend the game that gives a living reason to your website.

      After all, this is just the view of a population's 2%.
      Last edited by richardDkht; 1-24-21 at 5:50:42 AM.
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    7. #37
      Eric Stormbringer's Avatar
        Eric Stormbringer is offline Wizard101 US Faculty

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      Re: Jewel Vaults No Longer Tradeable! Why?

      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      that is a misunderstanding.

      Technically, the TOS cover what you are paying for with money. And that may well be resumed as "access" and "usage of the services". Whatever they may be.

      But then there is the content that kicks in:

      when you say to someone "if you do this thing, I will give you this other in return", expressly or intrinsically, you are creating a new agreement.

      As much as you are not obliged to create any such content, since people do pay only to access whatever you decide to offer them, the moment the offer is created, it comes with boundaries.

      And unless on that specific agreement you define from start that it will be subjected to change, any deep change will affect the "trust" of people. To make it clear, the fact that you asked a further effort beyond what people paid at first makes the difference.

      let's make an example: A few years ago, a Celestia quest would give Elucidate TC as reward. One day, they decided to modify such quest. Since then, it does not give elucidate anymore.
      Everything is ok there, because when they modified the transaction (=the quest) that only affected NEW questers. According to the new logic you are defending, they would be free to make it retroactive, and delete from our decks all elucidate acquired in that way. THAT would be the breaking of agreement.

      So the transaction where you purchase a pack is separated from the one where you buy the access to the game; the transaction where you ask someone to spend months of their lifetime in order to gather the ingredients needed for a specific item is also different from the one where you sell access to the services.
      The access to the services is the transaction that covers the wandering and casual battling, the trading, and questing. That's all.

      The rest are individual microtransactions embedded in the general content, but separated from it. This is a legal view - stretched, in the case of non-monetized situations - not just an opinion.



      You can disagree; but look around you.. you are alone, there.

      For this is not something just related to W101, the whole world turns because of it.

      Why people tell you "do not go to that shop"? because something bad happened that broke their trust. Why people switch suppliers? Same reason.
      Why do we chose to not return to the same hotel and take a nearby one, in a nice location we visited, for the next Holiday, although they seem to have done everything on the signed paper?
      I could go on and on, the trust agreement is stronger than law, it's a manner of being toward others. It's what we often resume in that very vague "be fair".

      And it is something that you need to teach to children, because it relate to social interaction, whereas a child relates only to selfishness (the "I" being in the middle of the universe rather than part of it.. have a look at some psy books if you want to know more).

      So to maintain the trust agreement should be a holy unspoken rule in a game addressed to kids. And to be honest, it was, in the past W101.

      INSTEAD, since a couple of years ago, our dev team is doing the opposite. they are being "unfair", and try to justify it with silly arguments about the game's survival.

      And to be clear, you can always pull out an argument about the end of the world, to convince people to follow you. It even worked on brexit.

      But the truth is, to have those arguments validated, they would need to produce the technical data that accompain the analysis BEFORE they reach the conclusion, and that was never a thing. Instead they build backward the data based (at least whatever is shown to us) on the decision taken.

      Very easy... but wrong method.

      Well i'm stopping here. I understand you have your reasons, personal or professional, to defend the game that gives a living reason to your website.

      After all, this is just the view of a population's 2%.
      As I said the fundamental misunderstanding at work here is the idea that you own anything in the game.

      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht
      So the transaction where you purchase a pack is separated from the one where you buy the access to the game; the transaction where you ask someone to spend months of their lifetime in order to gather the ingredients needed for a specific item is also different from the one where you sell access to the services.
      This idea is entirely a player created construct and is explicitly debunked in the TOU. The money you spend on the pack items does not confer ownership and the time you spend in the game doesn't mean that KI cannot change property which never left their ownership.
      Name:  TOU- no ownership.png
Views: 64
Size:  142.6 KB

      Feelings of betrayed trust are exactly that- feelings and while KI has been(and continues to be sensitive to these feelings-despite belief to the contrary) these feelings differ amongst players. I and many others outside of central's bubble are glad they are taking the steps necessary to preserve their game and are finally making necessary changes that enhance our gameplay experience.

      Finally, I understand many people must ascribe a motive to a perspective they don't understand; but I don't own the website you are referring to(or make any money off of it). I simply disagree with your views.
      Last edited by Eric Stormbringer; 1-24-21 at 2:12:14 PM.

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    8. #38
      lethargy101's Avatar
        lethargy101 is offline Fizzled
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      Re: Jewel Vaults No Longer Tradeable! Why?

      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post
      All jokes aside, I think people forget the devs are human. Make a convincing argument and they are often inclined to listen.

      Human yes but not good people...well Ratbeard isn't.

    9. #39
      Yuna's Avatar
        Yuna is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Re: Jewel Vaults No Longer Tradeable! Why?


      i honestly wish ki would stop trying to fix things that doesn't need fixing. this jewel vault thing, what is the point of making it no trade? if it's to prevent people from trading over no trade jewels, just make it untradable if there are any no trade jewels in the vault. no reason to make the entire thing no trade. i know this is possible to code since you can't transfer a house in shared bank if it has no trade items in it. so theoritically they can do the same with jewel vaults.



      "Peace is but a shadow of death; desperate to forget its painful past. Though we hope for promising years,
      after shedding a thousand tears, yesterday's sorrow constantly nears."


    10. #40
      Eric Stormbringer's Avatar
        Eric Stormbringer is offline Wizard101 US Faculty

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      Re: Jewel Vaults No Longer Tradeable! Why?

      Quote Originally Posted by lethargy101 View Post
      Human yes but not good people...well Ratbeard isn't.
      Is life easier to live when you believe that people who disagree with you are not just wrong but also bad?
      Last edited by Eric Stormbringer; 1-25-21 at 3:19:08 PM.

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