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  • Results 1 to 6 of 6
    1. #1
      DanTheTerrible's Avatar
        DanTheTerrible is offline Apprentice Wizard

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      How is spell damage calculated under current rules?

      Hello. I am a long term player (not even sure when I started -- 2012 or so) that has been away from the game for several years. I have restarted playing for a couple of days and have come to the conclusion that something about how spell damage is calculated has changed from how it worked when I last played.

      My spells are doing more damage than I expect them to. Bear with me, I am not one of those grumpy overly-proud oldsters complaining "you young whippersnappers have it so easy compared to how it was in the day, dur-hur". I don't MIND my spells doing more damage and making the game easier, it just bugs me I don't understand how the mechanics are working. I am one of those math semi-prodigies that likes to keep track in my head how much damage my spell is going to do before casting it, so I can stack just enough blades and traps to do the job without wasting turns casting unneeded extras. But that isn't working for me any more and it is driving me nuts trying to figure out why.

      The way damage used to work was like this. First, your spell has a base damage number which displays on the spell card, which is often a range, so effectively the first thing the old algorithm did is generate a random number to determine where in the range the base damage is. Next, the algorithm added the effect of any applied sun damage spell to the spell card to the damage base. Next this base damage is modified by gear worn by the wizard. Then the game would determine if the attack was critical or not, and if it was multiply the damage by a large modifier for critical success. Then it would multiply this total base by modifiers for any charms on the caster (mostly blades) that apply, each blade increasing the damage by multiplying the damage from the previous step by [1 + (blade damage percentage)/100], or each negative charm (like weakness) reducing the damage by dividing it by [1 + (|charm damage reduction|)/100]. Then it would do the same for any wards (crucially last ward cast first, but that is a side issue outside this discussion), increasing the damage for each trap or reducing it for each shield. Lastly, the algorithm applies the modifier for damage school for the target, e.g. casting a death spell on a life minion usually increases damage by 30%.

      Some readers are probably wondering how in the heck anyone can keep track of all that in their heads under the 30 second time pressure to pick another spell card, but please trust me, some of us can. The problem absolutely is not that I'm doing the math wrong. The problem is the math isn't adding up (well, multiplying out, most of the modifiers are multiplication percentages). My spells are without question doing more damage than they used to, damage is no longer being calculated the way it used to be.

      Part of the issue is criticals. Criticals happen considerably more often than they used to, but that is a side issue. They may, I'm not quite sure, be causing a bigger damage bonus than they used to. The critical bonus used to be a flat times 2, a critical doubled your damage. It's hard to be sure in the midst of other unknown factors, but my general impression is that the critical bonus is now bigger than that, something like times 2.5.

      But that doesn't account for all of it. Even non-critical hits are usually causing more damage than I expect. It seems like a bare spell with no applied charms or wards does pretty close to the damage I expect. But once I apply blades or traps my calculations get thrown off and the spell starts doing extra damage the old system can't account for, and the more blades and traps applied the bigger the difference. It seems that blades and traps cause very roughly 20% more increase each than they used to. My general sense is that shields and negative charms haven't changed.

      HELP. Not understanding the current algorithm is driving me INSANE.

      Please feel free to just point me to a guide rather than type a long reply if there is a good one out there explaining current mechanics. Don't bother pointing me to a guide written 2016 or earlier, that will just explain the old system I am familiar with, which as I am trying to explain is WRONG under current rules.

    2. #2
      Patrick FairyStalker's Avatar
        Patrick FairyStalker is offline Master Wizard
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      Re: How is spell damage calculated under current rules?

      Can you provide an example of a calculation gone wrong? And walk through your expected math?

      Criticals are the big change, but they should actually be doing less than you expect (the multiplier is less than 2x for enemies with non-zero block).

      Edit:
      Quote Originally Posted by DanTheTerrible View Post
      or each negative charm (like weakness) reducing the damage by dividing it by [1 + (|charm damage reduction|)/100].
      This has never been true.

      Examples:
      If you were going to do base 1000 damage, and the opponent has a tower shield (50%), then the damage would be:
      1000*0.5 = 500, not 1000/1.5 = 667.

      For a weakness (25%), the damage would be:
      1000*0.75 = 750, not 1000/1.25 = 800.

      In short, a reduction of x% would be:
      base*(1-x/100)

      Does this account for the underestimate?
      Last edited by Patrick FairyStalker; 11-30-20 at 6:09:07 PM.

    3. #3
      DanTheTerrible's Avatar
        DanTheTerrible is offline Apprentice Wizard

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      Re: How is spell damage calculated under current rules?

      Quote Originally Posted by Patrick FairyStalker View Post
      Edit:
      This has never been true.


      You're right, I incorrectly stated how shields and negative charms work. I calculate them correctly in my head, but for some reason had a brain fart and gave a bogus formula when I typed my post. Thanks for the clarification.

      I've been doing some more deliberate experiments than just developing a vague "feel" for the changes, and I am now about 60% sure the changes I am seeing all have to do with the critical system, the stuff about blades and traps doing more damage is starting to look like a figment of my imagination.

      I don't really see what you mean by criticals doing less damage. They do way more damage than they used to, in my current experience. Possibly this is an artifact of good gear, I wear full waterworks as a level 65, but not really all that outstanding as I have not optimized my pet or jewels for critical chance. I suspect mostly it is a level thing. As I understand it the game adjusts critical chance and damage to make it less frequent and lower damage the higher your level, unless you acquire gear to compensate, and the change in critical scaling with level may outrun any possible improvement in gear. What level wizard are you playing that you see critical being less damage than it used to be?


      Edit: Ok, I've fought a few more experimental duels and change that 60% sure this is all about the critical system to about 99% sure. And I overstated how much more critical damage I am getting, I am actually getting a critical multiplier of about 2.1 at the moment (as a level 68 wearing gear with a 104 critical rating).

      My thanks to
      Patrick FairyStalker in this thread and the posters in the other similar thread about criticals for clarifying my thinking, the confusion about how damage works that led to posting this has pretty much been resolved in my mind now.
      Last edited by DanTheTerrible; 11-30-20 at 7:31:37 PM.

    4. #4
      Patrick FairyStalker's Avatar
        Patrick FairyStalker is offline Master Wizard
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      Re: How is spell damage calculated under current rules?

      Quote Originally Posted by DanTheTerrible View Post


      You're right, I incorrectly stated how shields and negative charms work. I calculate them correctly in my head, but for some reason had a brain fart and gave a bogus formula when I typed my post. Thanks for the clarification.

      I've been doing some more deliberate experiments than just developing a vague "feel" for the changes, and I am now about 60% sure the changes I am seeing all have to do with the critical system, the stuff about blades and traps doing more damage is starting to look like a figment of my imagination.

      I don't really see what you mean by criticals doing less damage. They do way more damage than they used to, in my current experience. Possibly this is an artifact of good gear, I wear full waterworks as a level 65, but not really all that outstanding as I have not optimized my pet or jewels for critical chance. I suspect mostly it is a level thing. As I understand it the game adjusts critical chance and damage to make it less frequent and lower damage the higher your level, unless you acquire gear to compensate, and the change in critical scaling with level may outrun any possible improvement in gear. What level wizard are you playing that you see critical being less damage than it used to be?
      Recent critical changes:
      http://www.wizard101central.com/foru...-Block-changes
      http://www.wizard101central.com/foru...and-Block-v3-0


      The critical multiplier, when not blocked, is now damage% = C/(3B+C).

      But without an example, I cannot help with your unexpected underestimate. Can you calculate what a spell is "supposed" to do, actually use it on a mob, and come back with the discrepancy? I need numbers.
      Last edited by Patrick FairyStalker; 11-30-20 at 7:24:25 PM.

    5. #5
      DanTheTerrible's Avatar
        DanTheTerrible is offline Apprentice Wizard

      • DanTheTerrible's Wizard Stats
        •  Wizard's Name:
        •  Angus OgreBreath
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        •  79
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        •  Avalon
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      Re: How is spell damage calculated under current rules?

      Quote Originally Posted by Patrick FairyStalker View Post
      Recent critical changes:
      http://www.wizard101central.com/foru...-Block-changes
      http://www.wizard101central.com/foru...and-Block-v3-0


      The critical multiplier, when not blocked, is now damage% = C/(3B+C).

      But without an example, I cannot help with your unexpected underestimate. Can you calculate what a spell is "supposed" to do, actually use it on a mob, and come back with the discrepancy? I need numbers.
      I think you missed the edit I added to my last post. My fault, I should have made a second post rather than a substantive edit. My thanks for your kind offer to help me with the math. But it just isn't necessary, I understand the math quite well, my confusion was over the changes in algorithm, seriously aggravated by my impatient posting based on "gut feeling" rather than purposeful testing. I now understand the system quite well enough to be able to go back to figuring out damage in my head, if not with perfect accuracy, close enough to quickly make the crucial decision of whether I have enough damage in hand or need to cast another blade or trap each round.

    6. #6
        richardDkht is offline Journeyman Wizard
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      Re: How is spell damage calculated under current rules?

      Somehow I also noticed an increase in the average damage output, that I estimated around 20-25% at first.

      But there are two things that are confusing me:

      first, the fact that since i'm now criticalling all the time, It's hard to calculate - I mostly compare old and new crit hits, and try to define whether the opponents have blocked or not to see the damage difference;

      second, the fact that all foes from lvl 50~ish up seem to have had their health reduced to approximately 75% of their original one.

      With this said, I used to need a blade and a crit to sandstorm all enemies in any non-boss room at waterworks; instead now I can sandstorm them away without the blade. This is also true for the death sharks, whose health would match the old health from fire or storm fishes, for example (who still needed the blade).
      My non-crit hit was around 1k, there, and now seem to be above that (on average).
      My savage paw used to hit in the -2k with a crit, and it is now getting above that;
      and my nova (after update, never used it before) with a same amount of blades used to crit around 4,xk damage, and now it reaches 5k.

      And when I farm jabberwock, my judgement reaches 20k, which it never did before.
      " I can solve any issues in the world, except those originated by human stupidity"
      ".. that leaves out A LOT.."

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