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    Thread: Mutate Cards


    1. #1
      KieranCaster's Avatar
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      Mutate Cards

      I am surprised Death Minotaur and Fire Wyvern are not PVP eligible.


      Is this an oversight by Kings Isle? They are not pre-enchanted, just changed. Mutate cards.....

      Any thoughts?

    2. #2
      WarWeaver's Avatar
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      Re: Mutate Cards

      They are essentially pre-enchanted so it could be intentional. I'm not entirely sure since things like the regular Deadly Minotaur TC exist.


    3. #3
      JaredSpellFrost's Avatar
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      Angry Re: Mutate Cards

      KingsIsle purposefully banned all Enchants and Enchanted Treasure Cards as an ongoing part of their PvP 5th Age campaign. Personally, I am livid that they banned Mutate TC- these spells are balanced as they come with fair damage values that cannot be affected by Sun school damage enhancements, and the most powerful Mutates require you to invest a considerable amount of Training Points into its corresponding spell.

      My Death Wizard just spent eight Training Points on Minotaur before these changes were announced specifically for PvP- now that Mutate Minotaur is worthless, I am down the points I need to train Sun school enchants and my other Astral spells. Of course, the only method to get these Training Points back is to pay an exorbitant amount of Crowns or an equally expensive amount on membership during the Buyback benefit.

      And I'm not the only victim here- people train into Sprite for Midnight Sprite, Phoenix for Thunderbird, Wyvern for Fire Drake, and more. KingsIsle is essentially telling all of these Players and their unique PvP strategies to shut up and devote their money to them to fix a nonproblem they created themselves.



      @Sparck- we need to see free training point buyback for everyone, or better yet, Mutate Spells brought back to the arena. These spells are incredibly niche, and I guarantee you this- they will never see the light of day again if not brought back. Mutate Spells are far from being OP, or even problematic in the Arena- I must admit, it concerns me to see the KI Devs think otherwise on this matter. Please don't make these unique spells and the strategies they bring go extinct forever!


      Geez, this mess has Sinbad Death Wand vibes written all over it...

      Last edited by JaredSpellFrost; 11-24-20 at 1:01:15 AM.

      "Yet like a bad case of athlete's foot you just kept coming back."
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    4. #4
        richardDkht is online now Journeyman Wizard
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      Re: Mutate Cards

      there is a deeper problem running here : since the development team decided to launch into the "holy quest to save W101", they took away from us something that is a sacred pact to establish trust: the acquired assets.

      That means, when you do an agreement with someone to give you something in exchange of something else, you are also engaging yourself to allow them to keep that something. It doesn't belong to you anymore, or at least not to you alone; so your own right to take, use, or do whatever else with it becomes limited.

      As long as people respect this rule, the trade is good and the relatioship of trust is built.

      But the new KI dev team decided unilaterally to remove this from their strategy; and today, everything, absolutely everything that you obtained, no matter what you gave for it, be it money, time, passion, or love, can be taken away from you without further negotiation,

      Removing acquired assets is what despotic governors do to subjugate their subjects - the message being, "nothing belongs to you, you have no right other than to follow whatever we decide, and you can make no long-term plans because we will not allow you to have what you need to guarantee their success"; the next step being to remove whoever complains (cfr. what happens in several countries IRL).

      And although KI aim wasn't necessarily to reach this point, the truth is that it is just what they did, are doing, and will do more and more in future.
      They thought that to "solve" a problem, they had the right to do so.
      And they decided to ignore players complains and tried to shut them off with new stuff that is supposed to compensate the losses - in their mind.

      China made the same thing - the result is that today's population don't care about China anymore and will do anything to get a living, as long as they are not caught (and migrate their business abroad if the opportunity arises).

      Translated into a game, that means that (a) behaviours will change, pushing toward selfishness and individuality. I think you can see this clearly already; and (b) at some point, people will just give up, first by doing routinely stuff, then one day realizing that "it is no longer fun" and quitting.

      But since it is not to be a mass-exodus, rather something happening slowly, a new population may take their place, these having no assets from the beginning, thus not thinking at all bad about the game they discovered.

      And to make things clear, the "we had no other choice" bashing that was done over and over is a big fake.

      There ARE other solutions, for long-term consistency, that did NOT require to remove acquired assets from the balance.

      So yea, forget about strategy and play day to day hoping to get through; that's the best thing to do, nowadays.
      " I can solve any issues in the world, except those originated by human stupidity"
      ".. that leaves out A LOT.."

    5. #5
      lethargy101's Avatar
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      Re: Mutate Cards

      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      there is a deeper problem running here : since the development team decided to launch into the "holy quest to save W101", they took away from us something that is a sacred pact to establish trust: the acquired assets.

      That means, when you do an agreement with someone to give you something in exchange of something else, you are also engaging yourself to allow them to keep that something. It doesn't belong to you anymore, or at least not to you alone; so your own right to take, use, or do whatever else with it becomes limited.

      As long as people respect this rule, the trade is good and the relatioship of trust is built.

      But the new KI dev team decided unilaterally to remove this from their strategy; and today, everything, absolutely everything that you obtained, no matter what you gave for it, be it money, time, passion, or love, can be taken away from you without further negotiation,

      Removing acquired assets is what despotic governors do to subjugate their subjects - the message being, "nothing belongs to you, you have no right other than to follow whatever we decide, and you can make no long-term plans because we will not allow you to have what you need to guarantee their success"; the next step being to remove whoever complains (cfr. what happens in several countries IRL).

      And although KI aim wasn't necessarily to reach this point, the truth is that it is just what they did, are doing, and will do more and more in future.
      They thought that to "solve" a problem, they had the right to do so.
      And they decided to ignore players complains and tried to shut them off with new stuff that is supposed to compensate the losses - in their mind.

      China made the same thing - the result is that today's population don't care about China anymore and will do anything to get a living, as long as they are not caught (and migrate their business abroad if the opportunity arises).

      Translated into a game, that means that (a) behaviours will change, pushing toward selfishness and individuality. I think you can see this clearly already; and (b) at some point, people will just give up, first by doing routinely stuff, then one day realizing that "it is no longer fun" and quitting.

      But since it is not to be a mass-exodus, rather something happening slowly, a new population may take their place, these having no assets from the beginning, thus not thinking at all bad about the game they discovered.

      And to make things clear, the "we had no other choice" bashing that was done over and over is a big fake.

      There ARE other solutions, for long-term consistency, that did NOT require to remove acquired assets from the balance.

      So yea, forget about strategy and play day to day hoping to get through; that's the best thing to do, nowadays.
      Well said. I won't spend any real money on crowns anymore because you can't trust what will change on a whim of KI. Anything they say today will mean nothing in a month, when they lie their backside off. Devs are liars proven time and again.

    6. #6
      Robobot1747's Avatar
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      Re: Mutate Cards

      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      there is a deeper problem running here : since the development team decided to launch into the "holy quest to save W101", they took away from us something that is a sacred pact to establish trust: the acquired assets.
      That means, when you do an agreement with someone to give you something in exchange of something else, you are also engaging yourself to allow them to keep that something. It doesn't belong to you anymore, or at least not to you alone; so your own right to take, use, or do whatever else with it becomes limited.
      As long as people respect this rule, the trade is good and the relatioship of trust is built.
      But the new KI dev team decided unilaterally to remove this from their strategy; and today, everything, absolutely everything that you obtained, no matter what you gave for it, be it money, time, passion, or love, can be taken away from you without further negotiation,
      Removing acquired assets is what despotic governors do to subjugate their subjects - the message being, "nothing belongs to you, you have no right other than to follow whatever we decide, and you can make no long-term plans because we will not allow you to have what you need to guarantee their success"; the next step being to remove whoever complains (cfr. what happens in several countries IRL).
      And although KI aim wasn't necessarily to reach this point, the truth is that it is just what they did, are doing, and will do more and more in future.
      They thought that to "solve" a problem, they had the right to do so.
      And they decided to ignore players complains and tried to shut them off with new stuff that is supposed to compensate the losses - in their mind.
      China made the same thing - the result is that today's population don't care about China anymore and will do anything to get a living, as long as they are not caught (and migrate their business abroad if the opportunity arises).
      Translated into a game, that means that (a) behaviours will change, pushing toward selfishness and individuality. I think you can see this clearly already; and (b) at some point, people will just give up, first by doing routinely stuff, then one day realizing that "it is no longer fun" and quitting.
      This is a game dude. KI isn't a despotic government. Nerfs are part of a game. You can't expect one mistake in design to necessitate buffing everything else in the game up to that broken level. I don't think your "acquired assets" are part of a sacred pact. Has KI ever said they'll never change how much damage your Malistaire gear does or whatever? I don't think so.

      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      And to make things clear, the "we had no other choice" bashing that was done over and over is a big fake.
      There ARE other solutions, for long-term consistency, that did NOT require to remove acquired assets from the balance.
      OK, so what are they? Is it your apparent solution of "buff everything up to the highest common denominator?"

      For the record, I think that removing the ability to pre-enchant mutates is dumb. There's a cost incurred to do that (having to get the natural less plentiful TCs vs pre-enchant a trained spell which requires an investment of training points) and a benefit (cheaper deadly minotaurs vs more training points). It's a good example of a trade-off and should have stayed. I do like the removal of damage enchants because it was silly that Troll does 1000 damage and summons a minion to break your shields. I like that block isn't completely useless now. I do not like people comparing a game company that changes how your toys work to totalitarianism.
      "Fire can be quenched. Storms can dissipate. Myths can simply be forgotten. But Death... Death is constant. Death has existed long before you came to be and it will exist long after it takes you."

    7. #7
      albak11's Avatar
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      Re: Mutate Cards

      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      there is a deeper problem running here : since the development team decided to launch into the "holy quest to save W101", they took away from us something that is a sacred pact to establish trust: the acquired assets.
      That means, when you do an agreement with someone to give you something in exchange of something else, you are also engaging yourself to allow them to keep that something. It doesn't belong to you anymore, or at least not to you alone; so your own right to take, use, or do whatever else with it becomes limited.
      As long as people respect this rule, the trade is good and the relationship of trust is built.
      But the new KI dev team decided unilaterally to remove this from their strategy; and today, everything, absolutely everything that you obtained, no matter what you gave for it, be it money, time, passion, or love, can be taken away from you without further negotiation,
      Removing acquired assets is what despotic governors do to subjugate their subjects - the message being, "nothing belongs to you, you have no right other than to follow whatever we decide, and you can make no long-term plans because we will not allow you to have what you need to guarantee their success"; the next step being to remove whoever complains (cfr. what happens in several countries IRL).
      And although KI aim wasn't necessarily to reach this point, the truth is that it is just what they did, are doing, and will do more and more in future.
      They thought that to "solve" a problem, they had the right to do so.
      And they decided to ignore players complains and tried to shut them off with new stuff that is supposed to compensate the losses - in their mind.
      China made the same thing - the result is that today's population don't care about China anymore and will do anything to get a living, as long as they are not caught (and migrate their business abroad if the opportunity arises).
      Translated into a game, that means that (a) behaviours will change, pushing toward selfishness and individuality. I think you can see this clearly already; and (b) at some point, people will just give up, first by doing routinely stuff, then one day realizing that "it is no longer fun" and quitting.
      But since it is not to be a mass-exodus, rather something happening slowly, a new population may take their place, these having no assets from the beginning, thus not thinking at all bad about the game they discovered.
      And to make things clear, the "we had no other choice" bashing that was done over and over is a big fake.
      There ARE other solutions, for long-term consistency, that did NOT require to remove acquired assets from the balance.
      So yea, forget about strategy and play day to day hoping to get through; that's the best thing to do, nowadays.
      As one that might be willing to wager that I am the spiral's largest consumer of mutate sprite, I would like to open by saying I am against removing the mutate tc from PvP, and I'm hesitant to say if I yet agree to removing the damage boosts. From first to third age, my wizards lived in the arena, saw many changes, was not happy with them, not happy that KI didn't act to change them, so my wizards no longer live anywhere near the arena - most now have apartments in the Arcanum. With that said, I was hoping that the beginning of this age would see improvements and changes that I may visit the arena again - seems that remains to be seen.
      Moving onto what I have highlighted from your post, there has never been a time that these statements have not been in KI ToU - under heading ACCOUNTS:
      "PLEASE NOTE: YOU DO NOT OWN THE ACCOUNT YOU USE TO ACCESS THE SITE, AND YOU DO NOT OWN ANY DATA OR VIRTUAL ASSETS/CURRENCY THE COMPANY STORES ON ITS SERVERS RELATED TO THE ACCOUNT. You have no ownership interest in any virtual items or virtual currency that may be associated with the account from time-to-time."

      KI's "right to take, use, or do whatever else with it" is far from limited. They make this clear in the ToU, also under accounts:
      "We may suspend or terminate your account for any failure to comply with these Terms of Use, any terms related to any service offered through the Site or for any reason whatsoever, or for no reason."

      This is pretty clear, we do not own our accounts, nor any items whatsoever in the game, KI does. We pay for the opportunity to play a game. If KI so chooses, they may suspend or terminate our playing the game, and do not have to justify the suspension or termination.

      I believe the best way to have voices heard for change is to substantiate the reason you are wanting to see the change, solicit others that are in agreement of that requested change, and present it for consideration to those with the ability to make the change. In my opinion, comparing those with the ability to consider your request as "despotic governors" will not gain the cooperation you are seeking.

    8. #8
      albak11's Avatar
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      Re: Mutate Cards

      Quote Originally Posted by JaredSpellFrost View Post
      KingsIsle purposefully banned all Enchants and Enchanted Treasure Cards as an ongoing part of their PvP 5th Age campaign. Personally, I am livid that they banned Mutate TC- these spells are balanced as they come with fair damage values that cannot be affected by Sun school damage enhancements, and the most powerful Mutates require you to invest a considerable amount of Training Points into its corresponding spell.
      My Death Wizard just spent eight Training Points on Minotaur before these changes were announced specifically for PvP- now that Mutate Minotaur is worthless, I am down the points I need to train Sun school enchants and my other Astral spells. Of course, the only method to get these Training Points back is to pay an exorbitant amount of Crowns or an equally expensive amount on membership during the Buyback benefit.
      And I'm not the only victim here- people train into Sprite for Midnight Sprite, Phoenix for Thunderbird, Wyvern for Fire Drake, and more. KingsIsle is essentially telling all of these Players and their unique PvP strategies to shut up and devote their money to them to fix a nonproblem they created themselves.



      @Sparck- we need to see free training point buyback for everyone, or better yet, Mutate Spells brought back to the arena. These spells are incredibly niche, and I guarantee you this- they will never see the light of day again if not brought back. Mutate Spells are far from being OP, or even problematic in the Arena- I must admit, it concerns me to see the KI Devs think otherwise on this matter. Please don't make these unique spells and the strategies they bring go extinct forever!
      Geez, this mess has Sinbad Death Wand vibes written all over it...

      I'm so with you on the training to Mino for the mutate. I have two level 60 death wizards, will never level further as they were for PvP only, that are sitting on 250 premade cards each ...
      Please @Sparck - we need the ban on mutate spells for PvP reversed.

    9. #9
      Parcheesy00's Avatar
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      Re: Mutate Cards

      While we are suggesting things, I'd like to propose an idea as well.

      I think that banning pre-enchanted spells was a horrible idea. It just makes for more rng, less creativity, and just all around promotes static interactions.

      Some of you may disagree with me, but prolonging a card game is, in my opinion, never the way to go. People have very short attention spans. In hearthstone for example, the average match length is 10 minutes, give or take a minute or two. The meta always leans towards aggro decks, because playing more games in less time = more wins, regardless of whether the deck has the highest winrate or not. That's not to say that slower control decks aren't popular though. In fact, control beats aggro most of the time and even has a higher winrate. Most people tend to spam aggro decks in the early season to push through the ranks, and eventually opt for more control/fun decks when they get to high ladder/legend. The point is, I guarantee that hearthstone would not be as successful as it has been if each game took longer than 20 minutes.

      I'm not exactly sure what the intentions of removing pre-enchanted spells were, but I think solar surge was definitely a necessary addition.

      My suggestion is: allow pre-enchanted spells to be used again(including mutates), and create a vendor who sells solar surge tc. Old sun school enchants would still be banned, but now spells can be pre-enchanted with solar surge.

      I honestly don't see any downsides to doing this, as it still would negate the power creep of old enchants.

    10. #10
      KieranCaster's Avatar
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      Re: Mutate Cards

      Quote Originally Posted by JaredSpellFrost View Post
      KingsIsle purposefully banned all Enchants and Enchanted Treasure Cards as an ongoing part of their PvP 5th Age campaign. Personally, I am livid that they banned Mutate TC- these spells are balanced as they come with fair damage values that cannot be affected by Sun school damage enhancements, and the most powerful Mutates require you to invest a considerable amount of Training Points into its corresponding spell.

      My Death Wizard just spent eight Training Points on Minotaur before these changes were announced specifically for PvP- now that Mutate Minotaur is worthless, I am down the points I need to train Sun school enchants and my other Astral spells. Of course, the only method to get these Training Points back is to pay an exorbitant amount of Crowns or an equally expensive amount on membership during the Buyback benefit.

      And I'm not the only victim here- people train into Sprite for Midnight Sprite, Phoenix for Thunderbird, Wyvern for Fire Drake, and more. KingsIsle is essentially telling all of these Players and their unique PvP strategies to shut up and devote their money to them to fix a nonproblem they created themselves.



      @Sparck- we need to see free training point buyback for everyone, or better yet, Mutate Spells brought back to the arena. These spells are incredibly niche, and I guarantee you this- they will never see the light of day again if not brought back. Mutate Spells are far from being OP, or even problematic in the Arena- I must admit, it concerns me to see the KI Devs think otherwise on this matter. Please don't make these unique spells and the strategies they bring go extinct forever!


      Geez, this mess has Sinbad Death Wand vibes written all over it...

      I am disappointed - not mad. It's a little perplexing because it seems damage enchants were not allowed. A mutate is not a damage enchant, and as you pointed out, the mutate Minotaur into a Death Minotaur and Mutate Ice Wyvern into a Fire Wyvern is not an over-powered card in terms of damage per pip.

      I've done the same - retrained just to make the death minotaur and fire wyvern. These cards are now like cans of R-22 refrigerant. Have cases full of them, and no PVP matches to use them.

      Perhaps the Mutate cards are just an oversight, and will return.

      My last thought is: It appears Radical is allowed in PVP. I haven't tested it on Powerlink, but will.

      Hey - @Sparck
      Can you check on the mutate cards, please?

      And, when will Ramp revert back to two (2) rounds?

      Many thanks!

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