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    Results 1 to 10 of 14
    1. #1
      Cosmos's Avatar
        Cosmos is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      What do you want out of a new antagonist?

      Questing through the 3rd arc worlds for the first time this past month has really given my a new perspective on KI's writing. For once the whole thing feels cohesive -- like the pieces were meant to fit together. I never truly got that feeling in the 1st arc and never even came close to it in the 2nd.

      What I'm trying to say is that the planning showed and that the game has been tremendously improved because of it.

      I am now questing through Mirage and Grandpappy Spoder already elicits more emotion from me than Morganthe ever did. The threat feels real and tangible.

      "I have to stop them before they destroy the Spiral."

      I never got that impression with the previous two villains, and I think this is because the writers took the time to integrate Spider into the game world in a way that Malistare and Morganthe did not receive.

      After stumbling upon this thread from many years ago, I began to wonder what I would have wanted out of Spider and the worlds I am playing through right now.



      Questions to consider ~

      - Now that Spider's story is over (for all you lvl 130s out there that is; I'm still hopping around SandyLand) and KI has stated they are looking towards the future, what do you want to see in this upcoming villain's story?

      - How do you think their story should play out?

      - Do you think the whole arc should stick with the more whimsical atmosphere they are setting up in Karamelle? Or should this be a "breather" world like Polaris?

      - Furthermore, how dark should the tone get? Is it time to throw off pretenses of being a "kid's game" and embrace some more gritty and mature themes?

      - I jokingly posted this last month, but it does raise the question of just how far KI can push the lore. We have subdued a Primal Force of the Spiral; how can we top that? Should we? Is it time to focus in on a more localized problem that needs fixing?

      - Should their even be an "arc" for new villains at all? Are one/two world mini-arcs the way forward?



      *Keep in mind though that I haven't played through Empyrea so I don't know all the nuance of the current endgame when I ask these questions. Raven could have farted rainbows into the heavens to reveal some crucial detail about the new baddie for all I know.
      Last edited by Cosmos; 8-28-20 at 11:46:35 AM.
      Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory. - Machiavelli // I also write my own stuff ~

    2. #2
      Dylan Windwalker's Avatar
        Dylan Windwalker is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Re: What do you want out of a new antagonist?

      Good villains are often actually the hero of their stories. I really want a villain that I could actually relate to, that has truly good intentions but are going about their plans wrongfully to the whole of the wizarding world. Maybe spice it up with some philosophical ideologies. But honestly its really difficult to make that happen without crossing the line of what would still be "Child-friendly". With that kind of limit, villains with the potential to be really impactful, could feel very cut and dry...

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    3. #3
      Cosmos's Avatar
        Cosmos is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Re: What do you want out of a new antagonist?

      Quote Originally Posted by Dylan Windwalker View Post
      Good villains are often actually the hero of their stories. I really want a villain that I could actually relate to, that has truly good intentions but are going about their plans wrongfully to the whole of the wizarding world. Maybe spice it up with some philosophical ideologies. But honestly its really difficult to make that happen without crossing the line of what would still be "Child-friendly". With that kind of limit, villains with the potential to be really impactful, could feel very cut and dry...
      That would be an interesting approach.

      I've always liked Sofia Lamb from Bioshock 2 if you are familiar with that series. Or The Many from System Shock 2 whom she is based off of; a villain with the goal of a Utopian society while applying an "ends justifies the means" ideology and subverting free will.

      Hmm, I can see what you mean when you say that it can start to get heavy pretty fast. Even so motive is an important conversation to have.
      Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory. - Machiavelli // I also write my own stuff ~

    4. #4
      Oxnhorse's Avatar
        Oxnhorse is offline Adept Wizard

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      Post Re: What do you want out of a new antagonist?

      Quote Originally Posted by Cosmos View Post
      Questing through the 3rd arc worlds for the first time this past month has really given my a new perspective on KI's writing. For once the whole thing feels cohesive -- like the pieces were meant to fit together. I never truly got that feeling in the 1st arc and never even came close to it in the 2nd.

      What I'm trying to say is that the planning showed and that the game has been tremendously improved because of it.

      I am now questing through Mirage and Grandpappy Spoder already elicits more emotion from me than Morganthe ever did. The threat feels real and tangible.

      "I have to stop them before they destroy the Spiral."

      I never got that impression with the previous two villains, and I think this is because the writers took the time to integrate Spider into the game world in a way that Malistare and Morganthe did not receive.

      After stumbling upon this thread from many years ago, I began to wonder what I would have wanted out of Spider and the worlds I am playing through right now.



      Questions to consider ~

      - Now that Spider's story is over (for all you lvl 130s out there that is; I'm still hopping around SandyLand) and KI has stated they are looking towards the future, what do you want to see in this upcoming villain's story?

      - How do you think their story should play out?

      - Do you think the whole arc should stick with the more whimsical atmosphere they are setting up in Karamelle? Or should this be a "breather" world like Polaris?

      - Furthermore, how dark should the tone get? Is it time to throw off pretenses of being a "kid's game" and embrace some more gritty and mature themes?

      - I jokingly posted this last month, but it does raise the question of just how far KI can push the lore. We have subdued a Primal Force of the Spiral; how can we top that? Should we? Is it time to focus in on a more localized problem that needs fixing?

      - Should their even be an "arc" for new villains at all? Are one/two world mini-arcs the way forward?



      *Keep in mind though that I haven't played through Empyrea so I don't know all the nuance of the current endgame when I ask these questions. Raven could have farted rainbows into the heavens to reveal some crucial detail about the new baddie for all I know.
      Since you are near the end of the 3rd Arc, one constant hiccup surrounding Polaris, Arcanum, Mirage and Empyrea is the trouble with the Cabal.

      From the interplay with Duncan Grimwater in Malistaire's house, Gretta Darkkettle under Firecat Alley and the Forbidden Wing shrouded in lightning; the Cabal has tried to stop our advancement to defeating their plans in the 3rd Arc.

      With Spider and Raven reconciled and the ancient groves restored and attuned to the Wizard (sorry if its a spoiler); everything is calm.

      My observation here is that Morganthe became an issue near the start of Celestia, and Spider reveled his true intentions at the end of Khrysalis, by commanding his children to take advantage of the unknown lands of the 3rd Arc (before we gained entry).

      So naturally, since the schism of the Cabal and Arcanum wizards is still unresolved over the W101 universe; it would make perfect sense that the 4th Arc would have the remnants of the Cabal causing trouble, so everything about the Arcanum would be restored.

      MY ONLY DOWNSIDE with this, is that older comps like mine get buggy and go haywire during the battles; but still the Cabal would be the most viable unresolved enemy of the 3rd Arc that I believe would make the most sense.

      Oxnhorse

    5. #5
      WarWeaver's Avatar
        WarWeaver is offline Adept Wizard

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        •  Brian SunWeaver
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        •  130
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        •  Empyrea
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        •  Fire
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        •  Lord Smokey
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      Re: What do you want out of a new antagonist?

      For once I would like one that is both threatening and competent.

      Malistaire was competent but didn't really feel threatening. Us beating him in a 1v1 when our player didn't even know magic existed before coming to the spiral while he has studied magic for years and been in constant pursuit of power certainly didn't help.

      Morganthe started of competent but kept getting dumber with each world. Unlike with Malistaire she had ample reason to see us as a threat that needed to be eliminated before the final confrontation but didn't really do anything about it because of how occupied she was with her new toy, which was really dumb on her part.

      Grandfather spider was very competent but not very threatening. I really didn't get the feeling he was trying to destroy the spiral and it really shows in the writing. Those among his children who did want to destroy it were weaker then us so I couldn't take it seriously.


      Having a once good natured person(s) turn dark in order to get vengeance also wouldn't hurt either. Maybe a person(s)who was there during the first world that lost their friends and family because of the war and now hates the titans and their creators?


    6. #6
      KieranCaster's Avatar
        KieranCaster is offline Magus Wizard

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      Re: What do you want out of a new antagonist?

      Quote Originally Posted by Cosmos View Post
      Questing through the 3rd arc worlds for the first time this past month has really given my a new perspective on KI's writing. For once the whole thing feels cohesive -- like the pieces were meant to fit together. I never truly got that feeling in the 1st arc and never even came close to it in the 2nd.

      What I'm trying to say is that the planning showed and that the game has been tremendously improved because of it.

      I am now questing through Mirage and Grandpappy Spoder already elicits more emotion from me than Morganthe ever did. The threat feels real and tangible.

      "I have to stop them before they destroy the Spiral."

      I never got that impression with the previous two villains, and I think this is because the writers took the time to integrate Spider into the game world in a way that Malistare and Morganthe did not receive.

      After stumbling upon this thread from many years ago, I began to wonder what I would have wanted out of Spider and the worlds I am playing through right now.



      Questions to consider ~

      - Now that Spider's story is over (for all you lvl 130s out there that is; I'm still hopping around SandyLand) and KI has stated they are looking towards the future, what do you want to see in this upcoming villain's story?

      - How do you think their story should play out?

      - Do you think the whole arc should stick with the more whimsical atmosphere they are setting up in Karamelle? Or should this be a "breather" world like Polaris?

      - Furthermore, how dark should the tone get? Is it time to throw off pretenses of being a "kid's game" and embrace some more gritty and mature themes?

      - I jokingly posted this last month, but it does raise the question of just how far KI can push the lore. We have subdued a Primal Force of the Spiral; how can we top that? Should we? Is it time to focus in on a more localized problem that needs fixing?

      - Should their even be an "arc" for new villains at all? Are one/two world mini-arcs the way forward?



      *Keep in mind though that I haven't played through Empyrea so I don't know all the nuance of the current endgame when I ask these questions. Raven could have farted rainbows into the heavens to reveal some crucial detail about the new baddie for all I know.
      I really love the Star Trek theme. That was hilarious. The voice and dialogue of Captain Pork, Beans tied with the animation, the smiles and gestures was just perfect. The dialogue With the Djinni was awesome and fun!! And Polaris! How can I forget Polaris!



      Just my thoughts
      Last edited by Jester; 8-30-20 at 11:17:24 AM. Reason: Removed political comments

    7. #7
      Oxnhorse's Avatar
        Oxnhorse is offline Adept Wizard

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      Re: What do you want out of a new antagonist?

      We kinda experienced the good turned bad in the 3rd Arc with Gretta Darkkettle and Duncan Grimwater; and with the schism of the Arcanum Wizards and the Cabal over the First World divide.

      As we played as Morganthe in Radiance Reborn during the looking back sequences, she went from being a lackey of Sir Mallory, to a frustrated brat and then a tortured soul with the Spider Magi; and halfway through the Spider webs of Khrysalis, we are involved in helping a future villain escape his prison.

      It was a nice touch with the Batman and Star Trek themes in Empyrea with a lot of looking back as we were moving forward.

      All of this tells me that KI likes to use unresolved content to setup a major villain.

      Arc 1: Malistaire

      One aspect of W101 is that we are never told how Sylvia Drake died, but the remnants of the destroyed Death School spend their talents as mini bosses trying to destroy the wizard with clues to how she died, culminating in a somewhat epic reveal at the end of the Storm alley of Wizard City that Malistaire is using his allies as a shield to privately seek to resurrect Sylvia.

      Krokopatra was guarding the Krokonomican, a text that was meant to explain how to resurrect Sylvia in Krokotopia, ad as Malistaire sought to claim it, the Marleybonians had already secured it in the Museum of Marleybone under heavy security. Malistaire couldn't get close, so he sprung Meowiarty from New Gate Prison; to obtain the Krokonomican for him.

      Malistaire wanted to get himself to Dragonspyre ASAP, but the Council of Light entrusted the Spiral Key to the Emperor of Mooshu, so he had to cause trouble there as well to keep the wizard busy, and then we are forced to battle Cyrus in order to prove that we have the battle prowess to tackle Malistaire.

      When we get to Dragonspyre, we find that he has literally sacrificed everyone and everything in the failed attempt to resurrect Sylvia. And by the time we dispatch Malistaire the first time, he has nothing to live for.

      Arc 2: Morganthe

      We discover near the end of Khrysalis that she first student of Wizard City and that Sylvia and Malistaire have had the final straw in her major blunders that eventually gets her expelled. She weaves a prophecy together after she fails to master the Star (Auras), Sun (Enchantments) and Moon (Polymorphs) schools and destroys everyone in those worlds that stand in her way.

      As a final bit of revenge, she manages to resurrect Malistaire and uses him as a vessel to destroy Azteca fro the Spiral, and flees to Khrysalis in order to remake the entire Spiral in her image. She fails and falls into the void.

      Malistaire miraculously falls from the Aztecan Comet into Darkmoor, the family estate of the Drakes and we are given a standing challenge to battle him one final time; before Sylvia and Malistaire walk into W101 eternity with the promise of never returning again.

      Arc 3: Grandfather Spider

      Old Cob was a rather interesting twist, but two of his sons nearly manage to destroy the Sky Anchor in Polaris and resurrect the evil dead in Mirage; places in which a group of Arcanum wizards rule over.

      And after we have saved the people of Mirage, we must travel all 4 corners of the Sands of Time to recover 3 Chronoshards and Bartleby's Eye of History, which causes Santiago to disappear.

      Spider steals the Raven child and forces her to break chains so he can obtain his Chaos Heart that Grandmother Raven had obscured in the tempest storms of Empyrea. At the end, Spider and Raven are reunited and find out that the Aethyr Titan threatens to completely destroy the universe, culminating in his demise and the couple refusing to leave the Aethyr Void.

      So now we finally have Arc 4. One of the many unresolved issues KI has is that the Cabal have not been defeated, the Forbidden Wing of Arcanum has not been restored and the remnants of the Death School are still around.

      Of all these the Death School remnants are the easiest to reconcile, because Duncan and Gretta both mentioned they were offered POWER. Power they don't really need, because of the health steal component of the Death mechanic.

      Many like Kirby Longspear could have rejected the offer, while many death teachers accepted the idea with open arms; to get revenge against Ravenwood and Ambrose.

      And unless KI does something completely different with Karmelle, the Arcanum wizards are most likely gonna tell us they have tracked down some of the remnants of the Cabal as being found in Karmelle and we need to go after them; provided that we have finished a new quest to gain a new Arcanum badge, by restoring the Forbidden Wing to receive the Spiral Key to Karamelle.

      I have no idea if this is how things will turn out, but this is how I would expect the beginning of Arc 4 would go, from the way W101 has done storylines in the past.

      Oxnhorse

    8. #8
      Allison DeathWielder's Avatar
        Allison DeathWielder is offline Archmage Wizard

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      Re: What do you want out of a new antagonist?

      On the topic of a villain with good intentions doing the wrong thing, I feel we already had that with arc 1. Maybe I read between the lines wrong, but I thought it was always pretty clear that Malistaire was seen as a good person, happy with Sylvia, before she was struck ill. In the wake of her death, he went insane and did everything he had to just to bring his wife back. His goal and motivation was noble--and painfully relateable to anyone who has lost a loved one--but clearly he went about it the wrong way.

      Something worth noting from KI Live, however, is that tidbit that we're deviating from the concept of a single major villain that we chase through multiple worlds. The writers wanted to do something different with Karamelle and beyond, so this arc is going to have an unprecedented progression structure for this game. Personally, considering that the Cabal is still a prominent figure in the story, I would not be surprised if at some point we get the reveal that the Cabal is responsible for Sylvia's death. After learning about the deal they made with him in the Mirage questline to get Bartleby's eye in exchange for the secret to bringing Sylvia back, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that they orchestrated that situation from the beginning.
      Last edited by Allison DeathWielder; 8-30-20 at 7:50:56 PM.

      1 account, 7 Wizards. Over 10 years of adventure

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    9. #9
      Nobility's Avatar
        Nobility is offline Initiate Wizard
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      Re: What do you want out of a new antagonist?

      Malistaire was competent, but only mildly threatening.

      Morganthe was competent, but came to rely too heavily on a prophecy, and was initially threatening for her mystery & willingness to 'recruit' us to work with her.

      Grandfather Spider was competent and threatening, but came to rely too heavily on his children for his own work.

      What if our final enemy is the 'Spiral' itself? What if the Spiral had sent the three villains in order to correct itself? The young Wizard / Scion is a massive force of light and good, and all that is light and good, must be met by an equal force of darkness and despair to bring true balance.

      Or, alternatively,

      There's simply NOTHINGto fear.

      How could you fear the vast, cold, dead, empty space in-between the worlds? What primordial soup is there for us to fear, hiding in her sweet embrace creatures of infinite terror?

      I surely don't fear NOTHING.​ Do you?
      Ponponpon!


    10. #10
      Dylan Windwalker's Avatar
        Dylan Windwalker is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Re: What do you want out of a new antagonist?

      Let's do a spy story!! Say we temporarily join the Cabal and turn into evil wizards, we become the main antagonist and the Council of Light and Arcanum professors are like "WHAT?????" but its also a methodological scheme planned by Ambrose to destroy an evil organization from the inside

      Signature created by Expelliarmus in Blue Nouveau Designs, thanks!
      Dylan Windwalker: Feel Free to stop by and ask me for any help by Visitor Messages/Private Messages! (I'll try to help whenever I'm possible)

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