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    Thread: Cheating Bosses


    1. #11
        Spellbinder is offline Legendary Wizard
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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      Cheating bosses can be fun. I for one like Water works, Medulla and others.

      However, I do agree that it is getting to be too much. To many bosses require certain cards to be played at certain times.

      The cheating bosses that I enjoy all allow room to still have options. The ones I do not like are the ones with a format layout to follow or the battle becomes way harder/impossible.

      Another issue I have been having is with my adhd, and the cheating taking up so much more time that I can't keep track of rounds when needed because there is way to much going on and again, taking way to long.

      So many strategies now involve fleeing if you don't go first, a certain spell is cast, ect. Basically, if cheating rng is not on your side. Pretty sure

      Again, I like cheating bosses when they are done right. Their cheats need to be quick, but not hard to spot. The ones with like 30 cheats need to be chilled though. Logging into the wiki to read up on cheats and finding a novel written on the topic in getting more and more common.

      Maybe bosses need like a 4 cheat limit?
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    2. #12
      MzDreamfire's Avatar
        MzDreamfire is offline Journeyman Wizard

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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      I understand how you and your son feel about cheating bosses. I feel the same way a lot of times.
      I mainly solo and hate to bother people and ask for help. There are some pretty awesome people here on Central that will help you. They've helped me a few times thank goodness. I craft gear or get them from packs so I don't have to farm.
      I still have yet to do all of Darkmoor except up to the point of getting the spell. Same with Aquila. I farmed to get the Alpha and Omega ring but haven't really gone past that much either.
      I've tried Team Up! a few times and have had both good and bad experiences.
      Right now I'm waiting to do Storm Titan until I have my other computer my son is building me.
      This one is lagging so bad. It's not fair to make people who are helping me wait around every time I go through a doorway etc. So for now I'm doing things I can do by myself. I like a challenge but sometimes it's overwhelming even with Henchmen. Maybe if we could pick the spells for Henchmen it wouldn't be so bad because they trigger a lot of the cheats in big battles. Hopefully I'll be caught up by the time Karamelle comes out. =)
      The world is full of magic. You just have to believe in it.

    3. #13
      Allison DeathWielder's Avatar
        Allison DeathWielder is offline Archmage Wizard

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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      I've never liked cheating bosses. Whenever I realize I have to do a cheating boss next, it's always a reaction something like, "ugh, another cheating boss, hope I can find a team who knows how to actually kill it."

      I'd rather see better AI and no cheats. You CAN create challenging bosses within the game rules, if the enemies don't make stupid moves like shielding when you don't even have spells for the school they shielded or using Enfeeble when you don't have any blades.
      Start the AI dumb in WC and gradually increase it through the game so that you have to think more when your plays start being countered at opportune times by the enemy.

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    4. #14
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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      The problem isn't so much the cheating bosses. For the most part, they are all tolerable even if you're at their level. The real problem is the increasingly excessive damage boost, piercing, and critical and block. I noticed this starting in Darkmoor, but it's gotten real bad around the second half of Empyrea and the Catacombs, where bosses (and some mobs) have around 120% damage boost, 30% pierce, and can critical and block more than you did back in the pre-Polaris days. I know they nerfed the spells and monster health, but they didn't change any of the other stats (at least not yet, I hope). Until this latest update, I wasn't really looking forward to the next world. I was expecting the bosses to have something like 180% damage boost, 50% pierce, and 80% critical and block and can get shadow pips every other round. And these aren't even the cheating bosses. Hopefully, they will tone all that down. Getting hit with a wild bolt from a random mob that does 4,200 damage is never fun (I've had this happen in the Catacombs already).
      Last edited by Happy Fun Ball; 8-2-20 at 3:25:40 AM.

    5. #15
      Dylan Windwalker's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Spellbinder View Post
      Cheating bosses can be fun. I for one like Water works, Medulla and others.

      However, I do agree that it is getting to be too much. To many bosses require certain cards to be played at certain times.

      The cheating bosses that I enjoy all allow room to still have options. The ones I do not like are the ones with a format layout to follow or the battle becomes way harder/impossible.

      Another issue I have been having is with my adhd, and the cheating taking up so much more time that I can't keep track of rounds when needed because there is way to much going on and again, taking way to long.

      So many strategies now involve fleeing if you don't go first, a certain spell is cast, ect. Basically, if cheating rng is not on your side. Pretty sure

      Again, I like cheating bosses when they are done right. Their cheats need to be quick, but not hard to spot. The ones with like 30 cheats need to be chilled though. Logging into the wiki to read up on cheats and finding a novel written on the topic in getting more and more common.

      Maybe bosses need like a 4 cheat limit?
      i don't doubt that Kingsisle is incapable of adding a "turn number" optional mechanic into fighting. I also think it would be fair if Kingsisle added an interactable item (like a "press x" to read kind of interactable) that outlines the explicit cheats necessary to know for the fight, but somebody in their company will have to put in the effort of detailing every cheating boss from Celestia to Empyrea and that's no small task.

      The only battles i know that really require for a wizard to be first are either Storm Titan and the fights in the Catacombs. Both of those places (particularly Renegade Druid, Greggors, Devourer. I left out Fellspawn because Key boss) are unnecessarily difficult for a team who are all there for the first time. But I'm also pretty confident that Kingsisle is well aware of this and will probably nerf them both at some point. I'm sure they're too busy right now in designing the new world "correctly"

      I think putting a limit towards how many cheats an average boss that has cheats in the first place is a good idea (purposefully excluding final bosses of worlds because they need to be somewhat difficult and challenge players, that's the whole idea of "final" bosses). But I would also recommend that the cheats would increase in amount every 2-3 worlds with the cheats being slightly more difficult each world, in order to make the challenge consistent with world progression and increasing challenge. I think the bosses in Empyrea should have difficult cheats, not gonna lie. It's the 16th world in the game and wizards should be strong enough to survive. But the cheats still need to be balanced in a way where players don't need to worried about starting the game a certain way or requiring a specific school of wizard in order to make the fight relatively possible.

      Quote Originally Posted by Allison DeathWielder View Post
      I've never liked cheating bosses. Whenever I realize I have to do a cheating boss next, it's always a reaction something like, "ugh, another cheating boss, hope I can find a team who knows how to actually kill it."

      I'd rather see better AI and no cheats. You CAN create challenging bosses within the game rules, if the enemies don't make stupid moves like shielding when you don't even have spells for the school they shielded or using Enfeeble when you don't have any blades.
      Start the AI dumb in WC and gradually increase it through the game so that you have to think more when your plays start being countered at opportune times by the enemy.
      I think this is what Kingsisle is trying to do. I'm pretty sure the AI from WizardCity to Dragonspyre are completely dumb. Afterwards however, Kingsisle is usually rotating between smarter AI and smarter spell sets, sprinkling in better overall stats. For example, in Polaris sometimes the bosses will use Enfeeble when the player doesn't have blades but at least notice that the boss has enfeeble in the first place. It would be devastating in the situation where the player does have blades. Polaris bosses have better spell sets and dumb AI, maybe Mirage has same spell sets as Polaris but with a slightly smarter AI.

      i think a good balancing for important bosses (end of an area or something) would be to have an interchangable rotation between a boss with either "Smarter AI" or "Smarter spell variety" based on whatever the next rotation would be, and cheating bosses with keeping with the rotation and difficulty from the previous world..
      Last edited by Willowdreamer; 8-2-20 at 1:35:00 PM. Reason: double posted

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    6. #16
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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      People ask how can you make battles more chalenging to keep up with players. How about increase there resist, damage and peirce. Give them smarter deck choices. If a wizard has 500 health why would you wait for shadow hit or some 7 pip spell if you could use one 4-6 pips to defeat them? if you have blade on you?

    7. #17
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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      Thank you to all who support my sentiments about cheating. There are some really good posts in this thread. I hope KI reads this discussion.

      There is one point I want to emphasize. It is possible for KI to develop enemies that fight within the rules that can test any player's skills. If they don't have the know-how (because they're too busy to play their own game), assemble a panel of players, representing some of the best players from each school, and they will tell you how to design the AI to duel. Just imagine entering a fight with four fire enemies: one boss (I prefer the word "master") and three minions who fight like the boss because they have learned from him. They all start with five pips (two power and one white, just like we do); they all buff their hit cards (just like we do); then they all hit with Meteor, and some of them crit (just like we do). That would be a big hit for the opposing team, but it's all within the rules. Or, how about four storm enemies. The boss is in the last slot. The minions all cast a different stormblade on the boss; then the boss hits, one or all opponents. It would hit hard, but it is all within the rules.

      One other point, as I alluded to above, there are some really good Wizard101 players. I have had the privilege to play with some of them by using the Team Up option. It is always a good feeling to know you are on the same team with someone who is really good at the game. KI, let these players give you some tips on how to develop good fighting enemies. There is never a need to cheat.

    8. #18
      MattDragonBlade's Avatar
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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      I disagree a little bit, as I find some of the cheats to be an interesting challenge. It more or less forces you to try something new and you have to use some brain power. This applies to some cheating bosses, such as waterworks, or various arc 2 main quest bosses in Celestia/Zafaria/Avalon. However, I do agree that some cheats go too far. Khrysalis has some pretty wild cheats as do some of the bosses in Mirage. Don't even get me started on that shadowwock battle. That one made me flee and return too many times while my team got insta-killed by a late joining battle cheat plus the super meteor every few rounds.
      I wish they'd bring back the simple cheats that are manageable to deal with and provide a fun challenge.

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    9. #19
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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      Quote Originally Posted by MrPid View Post
      Thank you to all who support my sentiments about cheating. There are some really good posts in this thread. I hope KI reads this discussion.

      There is one point I want to emphasize. It is possible for KI to develop enemies that fight within the rules that can test any player's skills. If they don't have the know-how (because they're too busy to play their own game), assemble a panel of players, representing some of the best players from each school, and they will tell you how to design the AI to duel. Just imagine entering a fight with four fire enemies: one boss (I prefer the word "master") and three minions who fight like the boss because they have learned from him. They all start with five pips (two power and one white, just like we do); they all buff their hit cards (just like we do); then they all hit with Meteor, and some of them crit (just like we do). That would be a big hit for the opposing team, but it's all within the rules. Or, how about four storm enemies. The boss is in the last slot. The minions all cast a different stormblade on the boss; then the boss hits, one or all opponents. It would hit hard, but it is all within the rules.

      One other point, as I alluded to above, there are some really good Wizard101 players. I have had the privilege to play with some of them by using the Team Up option. It is always a good feeling to know you are on the same team with someone who is really good at the game. KI, let these players give you some tips on how to develop good fighting enemies. There is never a need to cheat.
      Unfortunately, the scenarios that you develop in your second paragraph above are not realistic ones. As I mentioned, the AI is deliberately dumbed down for pve enemies. You are suggesting that they act like we do. That would mean that all battles would devolve into which side goes first. That side would win. Every time. You can do the math to see this, but it is really simple to see and it is how I am successful in the game.

      First round buffs, second round buffs and an AoE, just as you suggest.

      All fall down. Whoever went first just won. I do it every battle (except cheating bosses, of course) and I win every battle. So would they if they went first.

      So we need to think of something else...


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    10. #20
        Torpzun26 is online now Journeyman Wizard

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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      Quote Originally Posted by jlegendwielder View Post
      Unfortunately, the scenarios that you develop in your second paragraph above are not realistic ones. As I mentioned, the AI is deliberately dumbed down for pve enemies. You are suggesting that they act like we do. That would mean that all battles would devolve into which side goes first. That side would win. Every time. You can do the math to see this, but it is really simple to see and it is how I am successful in the game.

      First round buffs, second round buffs and an AoE, just as you suggest.

      All fall down. Whoever went first just won. I do it every battle (except cheating bosses, of course) and I win every battle. So would they if they went first.

      So we need to think of something else...
      The AI can do the same "stack the hitter" strategy that we can, and in fact, the Storm enemies do this in the new Monster Mayhem event. They still have a disadvantage as they can't control which position they take in battle (unless KI deliberately gives the boss the last spot, which they've done before as well).

      Furthermore, the AI has been improving over the worlds. Blading the wrong enemy is something you see virtually only in the first arc and a half, and after that it is an anomalous occurrence. I would completely expect for enemies to start deviating from the "target wizard" (the character who has generated the most Threat) for spells like Enfeeble. They technically already do this with the Mirage spells, but those are based off of who has the lowest HP. But if they were really smart, they wouldn't use single-target hits at all. Just AoE.

      A boss fight where the minions blade up the boss for a super quick and deadly attack would be an interesting battle, but only once or twice. After that, it would get stale and we'd need a boss who does something else.

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