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    Thread: Cheating Bosses


    1. #1
      MrPid's Avatar
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      Cheating Bosses

      Well, even though we have had some fun times, it looks as though my son and I are headed toward quitting the game. The reason? I'll give you three:
      1. Cheating bosses
      2. Bosses that cheat
      3. A game company that makes a game and then cheats at its own game!

      For fifty levels, you taught us to play a turn-based card game that had specific rules. Then Briskbreeze Tower came along and everything changed. Allow me to give you an example of what it feels like to play against a cheater.

      Let's play a game of chess. You must follow all the rules of the game. I, however, get two turns to your one. You start with no pawns and my pawns are all replaced with queens. Are you ready to play a fun game of chess?

      I just don't understand your desire to keep making cheating bosses. You are smart enough (I hope) to create bosses that play a challenging game within the rules of the game. My son and I are wishing we could defect to the other side: our enemies get more health, more pips, more power, more resist, more turns, just to mention a few of the cheats that ruin the game for us.

      As my son said after our last play-session, "Let's stop: there are just too many frustrating battles", referring to three cheating bosses in a row.

      Are you ever going to stop creating cheating bosses? Are you ever going to return to playing by the rules?

    2. #2
      Dylan Windwalker's Avatar
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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      There are cheats that are a little immense and could be toned down such as those that do shadow spells (that have not been nerfed, but will probably be updated in the future) and I totally agree that those cheats need to be fixed. There should never be any battle in the main quest line where you have to worry about dying early because of cheats. I do appreciate cheats that aren't too bad. However this doesn't mean that every boss battle in the game should be easy. For example Key boss battles are designed to be difficult because they're completely optional.

      It's simply that cheating bosses require you to do research and planning beforehand. That is a given in any game and its not beneath anyone who plays this game to do even kids. By looking up cheats in the Wiki, kids are not only interested in learning more about the boss fight, they're adopting new skills that will help them in the future such as not jumping into something where they don't know what they're doing.

      Not to mention cheating bosses typically require people to utilize teamwork and trusting other people to complete their roles in their best capacity. This is a life lesson that is difficult to teach in the real world but it helps that this is an inherent part of cheating bosses because players usually understand with teamwork, their battles and experiences are far easier. Sure you might have to find a third person to spam hits on Belloq so he doesn't Ra every turn but that's also somewhat expected of you to ask for help when help is needed.

      The point of cheating bosses isn't to make your experience worse, it's mainly intended to be a teaching tool. If there's a specific boss with cheats that you cannot deal with on your own (with your son), then you can reach out here in Central with a Wanted Help Thread or use the Team up Kiosk or ask your friends for help
      Last edited by Dylan Windwalker; 8-1-20 at 8:34:42 AM.

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    3. #3
        Torpzun26 is online now Journeyman Wizard

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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      Without cheats, the variety between bosses reduces drastically. A major example of this is the Vault of Ice in Krokotopia, where the three minibosses you have to defeat are just copies of one another. (Ok, one was changed to Fire recently, but now she's the same as all the Fire bosses in that world) Cheats, when done correctly, make boss encounters unique and refreshing. I particularly like ones that reward you for doing something you normally wouldn't do, like the Pendragon in Avalon, where you can turn the cheat against the boss with a Shift spell. And then if there's a Fire wizard, you can Detonate that DoT and win very quickly. I'd love to see more cheats that allow for wizards to be creative to gain an advantage.

    4. #4
      Dylan Windwalker's Avatar
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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      Quote Originally Posted by Torpzun26 View Post
      Without cheats, the variety between bosses reduces drastically. A major example of this is the Vault of Ice in Krokotopia, where the three minibosses you have to defeat are just copies of one another. (Ok, one was changed to Fire recently, but now she's the same as all the Fire bosses in that world) Cheats, when done correctly, make boss encounters unique and refreshing. I particularly like ones that reward you for doing something you normally wouldn't do, like the Pendragon in Avalon, where you can turn the cheat against the boss with a Shift spell. And then if there's a Fire wizard, you can Detonate that DoT and win very quickly. I'd love to see more cheats that allow for wizards to be creative to gain an advantage.
      #PowertothePlayer

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    5. #5
      jlegendwielder's Avatar
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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      I am a player like you and your son. I like to win. Every time. Every battle. And I have taken steps to make that possible.

      But that's just me (and you!). Others like more of a challenge.

      There was a thread recently where a poster called pve "trivial". He got a lot of grief for that, but he had a real point. You mentioned chess.

      KI knows that it could never succeed as a business if it tried to market a game where the players--most of them casual players like you and me--lose and never win. So they went the other direction. With mobs, the AI is set to a level that can only be called "stupid" when applied to the enemy. How many times have you seen opponents blade each other with blades that can't be used. Or shields that won't activate. Or increased healing spells that are never used. Or those spells where they cast them and they don't do anything at all.

      A lot. All those are wasted turns for the opponents and make your task easy, easier, easiest. It's not like chess at all, that's pvp. It's more like shooting fish in a barrel (why would you do that? And why would they be in the barrel to begin?).

      Regular bosses are the same, they just take longer because of higher health.

      Cheating bosses now...

      I think Dylan's WindWalker's response is one of the best explanations I've ever read. Well done, sir.

      With cheating bosses, you need to up your game. But the resources for that are here on just this website alone. Guides to every difficult dungeon and boss, groups of players dedicated to meeting up with you, advice on gear, a wiki and more. Some of the guides go step by step through an entire cheating boss battle (GF Spider, Medulla, Malistaire), showing you how to beat them in only a few rounds without even grinding.

      I hate cheating bosses!! I hate them with a passion and avoid them when possible. So much that I've used crafted gear for the entire game to avoid farming them for gear.

      But they are a part of the game that I put up with because even with the story line cheating bosses (which we need to defeat to play further in the game), if I am persistent I eventually beat them and move on. Gratefully. Never goin' back!

      So remember there is a lot of game to play besides the cheating bosses. You don't even have to do Briskbreeze, for instance (lol).

      Enjoy the challenge when you get to it. You will win.


      "I yam what I yam and that's all what I yam."

    6. #6
      Willowdreamer's Avatar
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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      Quote Originally Posted by MrPid View Post
      As my son said after our last play-session, "Let's stop: there are just too many frustrating battles", referring to three cheating bosses in a row.
      I hear you -- Kids definitely want to stop when they are no longer having fun. Heck, I WANT TO.

      That is the main reason I enjoy having side worlds, and side quests. Taking a break from the story after being defeated in a difficult battle, going home to decorate or tend gardens, or running around to collect reagents, or fishing -- any number of side activities are available for your son and you to decompress and set a different goal for your game time. OR even switch over to Pirate101 with your account logins and create Pirate characters to make a change until he's ready to continue with the storyline quests.

      You didn't say whether you and your son use Team Up to fill your battle with other wizards. This is definitely an opportunity to discuss with your son the various ideas posted by members in this thread, and together you and he figure out a strategy going forward. PLEASE consider sticking it through and exposing your son to the wider universe of the Spiral.

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    7. #7
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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      Bosses don't need to cheat to be more challenging. If only KingsIsle modeled certain bosses AI, health, resist, damage, and deck after that of a duelist... PvP to me is so much fun (Despite the RNG elements) because there is strategy, and a lot of it! However, unlike with cheating bosses, you are on a more level playing field, you know what to expect, and you have more control.
      Hopefully KingsIsle will exchange these insane bosses for enemies that are a little bit more like us!


      "Yet like a bad case of athlete's foot you just kept coming back."
      -Cosmos



    8. #8
      Chris Spiritcaster's Avatar
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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      I have been playing since June 2010 and understand the game pretty well. The number of cheating bosses needs to be reduced or at least not have some crazy cheats. I always look up cheats on Central and I understand a lot having been part of The Assistance Specialists when they were active. I honestly get tired of the constant cheating bosses as it is not fun slogging through the later worlds. I find the constant cheating tiring.

      It is interesting that in the developer's diary, it was mentioned that they would like at all cheating bosses. They might have done so, but the only thing that changed is their health. Their damage percent, spell damage, pierce, and cheats are still in place making them still very difficult, even with a good team. I ran the Sands of Time recently with my level 121 ice who has a lot of health, resistance, and decent damage. We had a full team of four where everyone was above level 120 and we struggled with the Shadowwock and Grandfather Spider. Two of us were defeated in each battle even though their health was nerfed as nothing else changed.

    9. #9
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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      I do think that cheating bosses add a nice dynamic to an otherwise stale gameplay loop if used in a certain way. That way being...


      • Cheating bosses should be used in moderation. Only the more important bosses in the main game story-wise should cheat. I'm talking less than half a dozen per world.


      • Cheats should be easy to understand within the course of the first battle. Tabbing out to check the wiki should not be a necessity.


      • Cheats should fit around a single theme. A boss should not be able to have lines of cheats that all do different things for the player to keep track of.


      One of my favorite dungeons in the game is the Trial of the Spheres because it adds more depth using the above without being overbearing. The bosses make it fairly clear what their deal is and how their cheats will be overcome. Moreover they are the last bosses of the world so it makes sense thematically.

      With that out of the way, your particular complaint also mentions increased pips, health, resist, etc. But those aren't cheats? Are those not part of the rules of the game? If you don't want those to increase and you don't want cheats, how can one expect the enemies of the game to keep up with the player? I'm curious to hear your solution because you basically ruled out any sort of difficulty progression that can be realistically achieved.
      Last edited by Cosmos; 8-2-20 at 5:29:03 PM.
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    10. #10
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      Re: Cheating Bosses

      Cheats keep fights challenging. They really emphasize the use of communication and teamwork. Without them it would be the same old "Stack Feint here, stack blade there" OHKO and move on. That get's real boring, real quick.

      The really difficult cheating bosses are mostly part of side content meant for players looking for a challenge. You can always skip those, but If you wish to attempt them, then you need to be prepared. You need to figure out what the cheats are, either through trial and error, or looking them up online. Once you know that, you can return with a winning strategy.

      The only cheating boss I haven't been able to do as part of a two wizard only team was the Devourer. I actually needed to purchase two henchman for that annoying bugger because of it's dumb "Eat Em Up" Cheat.

      The only issue I have with cheating bosses is that they are present in the main quest line at all. Bosses like Old Cob, Medulla, and the Titan's Trident(Especially this one) are too much for casual players using Team UP.


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