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    1. #31
      Eric Stormbringer's Avatar
        Eric Stormbringer is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Re: KI Live Summer Test Realm Teaser

      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      I am a balance wizard.

      I spent 8 (EIGHT) months drilling and farming and grinding to get all the required material to craft loremaster.

      Spent all my free time on that, after carefully assessing the interest of using it.

      Then i finally crafted it and added it to my deck.

      It wasn't the strongest 4-Pips hit, but it was a tactical one. Allowed me to buy time for mysel for my teammates to build up, reduced opponent damage, or was a finishing hit.

      That lasted for about 4 months. Then they nerfed it saying "it's too powerful".

      Well, had i know that they would nerf it, had they said when it came out "we'll probably reduce its values later on", or had they given ANY sign about a possible nerfing, I would have employed that unique time of my life doing something else.

      But they didn't. Some smarties just woke up a day and said "oh look, that's too much, let me change it" and off they went.

      (edit: I strongly believe that this is done for that "new content" that devs talk about in their tweets - namely stuff like introduction of spellments. So I see them very well later on create crazy hard to get or crowns pack spellments to bring back either loremaster damage or its debuffs to what they used to be. Great way to do new with old! And grab some money on the way.)

      Due to probability, which is not linear, a -25% smokescreen isn't just 10% less than a 35%. It basicly means that before enemies would fizzle once out of three time on average, and now they almost never fizzle. Don't believe my words, try it and come back with statistics.

      The -15% weakness isn't even enough to counter some armor piercing anymore.

      And the damage is ridiculously low for a 4 pips spell. The lowest of all 4-pips spells, actually, even lower than vampire with its steal health.

      There is responsibility behind this kind of decision. And everyone must understand that they don't just go say "i'll give you something very hard to do, but once you achieve it, i'll ruin it for you" without consequences.

      As a parallel, in China people can be expropriated by the government at any time.
      Result, most chinese investors don't care about anything long-term, and usually flee the country when they want to build up a business (look at Philippines to see an example on this).

      KI did just that - they took for granted that they own the cards, so hard-earning players have no rights or word to say. Well, in that case, conversation is over, and go die painfully...

      As of mana burn, I had it in my deck for a while, but using it has always been tricky since I had to wait for the right amount of pips. Understand that this spell was already weaker than most 90% of time, since it can't be enchanted (did you know that?).

      That means that for a 5 pips spell, in order to do as much damage as any equivalent other (that can be enchanted with a Big fat 300~ish card), opponent would need to have at least 9 pips and go second. And even like that, mana burn would not prevent opponent's spell to cast. For the same price, i could judge them and do way more damage, maybe even kill. The advantage was that, if they didn't use their pips that round, i'd sometimes get a "quiet" round before they hit me next, allowing to shield, blade or heal.

      So it was a really strategic spell, again.
      But I accepted it as that, since it was a balance spell, and balance power come from strategy indeed.

      Except that now, after burning 5 of my pips, and changing pretty much nothing to a powerful opponent, I am always at disadvantage. The only real advantage, the "quiet round" that would happen about 40% of times, now never comes, as they get the same amount of pips just after.

      So I ended up throwing this spell too on the useless pile. Thanks a lot KI.

      Yes, my PVE has been

      I may be a minority; but does that give rights to somebody to hurt me?

      (EDIT: and matter of cold logic, if the spell were really OP, why were they "so little used that never seen someone cast them"? shouldn't it be the other way round?)
      It's a consistency issue. Mana Burn was removing effectively 6 pips worth of value(not 3) as the card stated. The correction to mana burn simply fixed that value.

      As for Lore- it was very OP when looked at with Balances spell standards. It dealt above dpp damage while adding 2 disruptive effects. The power of the spell was bought down in line with spell balancing rules and is still valued at above what it should be under those rules.

      We know the shadow spells are being rebalanced to better fit with said rules and on the KI Live and roundtables the devs have stated that a total spell audit across the entire game may be something they could pursue moving forward.

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    2. #32
      goldendragon18's Avatar
        goldendragon18 is offline Master Wizard

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      Re: KI Live Summer Test Realm Teaser

      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post
      I believe you may have misunderstood what is being said here. They didn't say PvE players don't have a vested interest in general. Simply that PvE players have no vested interest in speaking up when a stat, item, spell etc is advantageous to the player even if it is overpowered. Meanwhile PvP players do have a vested interest in pointing out said discrepancies since those stats, items, spells etc are being actively used by/against them in PvP.
      - - - Updated - - -
      The simple reason, as illustrated in the posts- is that game balance in general is being looked at NOT just PvP. Yes Storm is low-mid tier in PvP and bugs isn't a problem in PvP. However bugs is a massive problem in terms of PvE and spell balance, hence why it(and many of the other shadow spells) are being nerfed,
      Yet, when it comes to the spells that are the only thing that helps many of us get through some of those battles in Mirage and Empyrea, they somehow become overpowered. It is now and always has been based on what PvPers consider OP for them in the Arena. Mystic, Raging Bull, Glowbugs, etc. are being nerfed.

      Casual players don't have much left to rely on now. From Gear to Crit/Block to trying to survive the increasing number of Cheating bosses, PvE doesn't seem to matter that much anymore.

      Yes, for PvE players those spells are not OP but they are survival. Without those spells, I never would have gotten my fire wizard through the first 2 levels of Darkmoor. She certainly won't get through the last level. Others are and will have the same problems if they don't have a full team to get them through. We don't complain about what works for us until things like this come up.

      But regardless, I think it was a tactless comment made by a Dev.

      Fallon WinterLeaf


    3. #33
        richardDkht is offline Journeyman Wizard
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      Re: KI Live Summer Test Realm Teaser

      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post
      It's a consistency issue. Mana Burn was removing effectively 6 pips worth of value(not 3) as the card stated. The correction to mana burn simply fixed that value.

      As for Lore- it was very OP when looked at with Balances spell standards. It dealt above dpp damage while adding 2 disruptive effects. The power of the spell was bought down in line with spell balancing rules and is still valued at above what it should be under those rules.

      We know the shadow spells are being rebalanced to better fit with said rules and on the KI Live and roundtables the devs have stated that a total spell audit across the entire game may be something they could pursue moving forward.


      There is no such a thing as "consistency issue" here. That is the Blunt, simple, binary excuse that was advocated by a couple of devs for this disgraceful change. People that actually play balance know better.

      Mana burn was removing 3 physical pips.

      That is, 3 slots out of 7. If you only had PP, it would remove a total value of 6, yes. But if you had 1, 2 or 3 normal pips, those would go away instead before the rest.

      Except for PVP players, where most people have boosted PP chance, or latest PVE bosses with tons of health, cheats and all sort of boosts, in every fight foes have at least one or two white pips, most of the time, when their pip amounts 9 or above (see my previous post for the 9-pips value issue).
      So they would lose those first, and one or two PP to complete.

      And again, this was compensatory with the facts that 1) spell isn't enchantable 2) spell is convenient only at some very specific moments of the battle.
      Devs did not take this into account during their butchering session.

      They instead listened to some silly kid who cried "boohoo, i lose in PVP because I fill my pips bar to cast a big storm spell and can't wipe the evil balance wizard since he keeps mana burning me! Unfair! I want to cast my 50k damage on a 4k health wizard who can't go beyond 13K with the same amount of blades as I have!"

      The proper answer would have been "kid learn to play", but no, they thought "ok, let's nerf".

      Same as they nerfed dispels, stuns etc.. Due to PVP whiners, instead of explaining that the game had mechanics to counter them naturally - like the anti-stun gear, for instance, that nobody wore or wears (guess what : except me..).

      As of Loremaster, again and once for all it was not OP.

      First of all, there isn't such a thing as a "balance spells standard". There are average damage outputs per pip values, that far from being a reference can be used to evaluate the interest of a spell. And there are average effect costs that complete a multi card like that. But there is also a reward scale to be taken into account, the global boost power, and history.

      Old LM average dpp was 430; average dpp for the oldest 4-pips balance card is 451,6. So no, it wasn't "above".

      If at beginning of the game every school was specialized and unique, that is today way old history. A class meant to be hitter with disadvantages on health/Healing now get heals and good gear health boosts/resists. A class meant to be healer with no AOE now get two decent AoEs. And so on. Most classes have been made less unique by adding the missing spells to correct their weaknesses.

      And the only class whose uniqueness was to have a bit of everything, but never as efficient as every one else ("good at everything, but excellent in nothing") was left in that limbo.

      All other classes have specific boosts (school blades) whose power is between 30 and 45 damage boost. Balance have the "universals" whose power goes between 20 and 25 (same with traps). So with a same base damage output and boosts, balance is doomed to a lesser hit on their opponent compared to any other school. That is why elemental spells were (and still are) among the most used, as they could take advantage of a second blade from elemental school.

      Except, that would cost one extra pip, and delay the hit by one round. In short, compared to storm, fire, death, myth, or even ice (the defense-based school), balance was hitting way less.

      If this was ok when all schools were unique, the disruption of uniqueness brought the issue of revamping balance in some way to avoid it falling behind.

      That was meant to be achieved with 4 spells: mana burn, loremaster, ninja piglets and supernova. These spells, albeit a bit more powerful than the previous balance ones, were restrained by some limitations: two were hard to obtain, two were condition spells, one could not be enchanted. Power was balanced by accuracy, rareness, conditions or a mix of the three.

      And all of them only worked with said weaker balance blades, which means that the power curve to enahance their damage output would always be lower than the one of other schools.

      Ye, binary people tend to take into account only "base damage".

      But the way you boost that base damage matters too.

      Nobody finds strange that a storm wizard, with 2 blades, achieves 50k+ damage. Well with equivalent cards, the maximum damage ouput a balance wizard can achieve with two blades is below 25K. If you do your maths on any 4-pips spell from schools other than balance, you'll notice that most (actually all but AoEs) outweighted the old loremaster output in the same way.

      That for the "average damage output", "global boost power" and "history".

      Then on the "rewards" subject: I said it before, once you give a reward to a player, you can't just remove it lightly on a whim.

      It may be your game, but what makes it successful is us players being there. That we expect some form of respect in return is pretty normal, imho.

      This spell was a reward from a pretty difficult task. It wasn't one of those that you'll get no matter what, you have to work hard to get it. So asking people to make that effort was part of a silent agreement to reward them with an useful card. Card stats and boost curve were still below the avarage of other schools - again, take into account every boost schools have, gear, blades and traps, not just base damage!

      That card being made useless (do tell me how many people use it today? I asked this at a KI live, how many casts since the nerf, they didn't dare to answer that one!) , is purely and simply a breach of said agreement. As a result trust between balance player base and KI has been disrupted.

      The sad truth is that loremaster was ok the way it was.

      BUT, if spellments were to come on 4-pips cards, then yes, boosting it in any way would make it way OP. And since we all know that spellments are meant to be implemented on a lot of cards, in time, that is where the need for a nerf arised.


      If there really were "school spells standards" and "balancing rules" I'd want KI to finally make those public for all schools and spell categories.

      And then i'd lol at how many items DO NOT fall in line with them.
      Last edited by richardDkht; 6-27-20 at 3:42:49 AM.

    4. #34
      Eric Stormbringer's Avatar
        Eric Stormbringer is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Quote Originally Posted by goldendragon18 View Post
      Yet, when it comes to the spells that are the only thing that helps many of us get through some of those battles in Mirage and Empyrea, they somehow become overpowered. It is now and always has been based on what PvPers consider OP for them in the Arena. Mystic, Raging Bull, Glowbugs, etc. are being nerfed.

      Casual players don't have much left to rely on now. From Gear to Crit/Block to trying to survive the increasing number of Cheating bosses, PvE doesn't seem to matter that much anymore.

      Yes, for PvE players those spells are not OP but they are survival. Without those spells, I never would have gotten my fire wizard through the first 2 levels of Darkmoor. She certainly won't get through the last level. Others are and will have the same problems if they don't have a full team to get them through. We don't complain about what works for us until things like this come up.

      But regardless, I think it was a tactless comment made by a Dev.
      As can be seen in the third screenshot in my first post in this thread- the devs have stated that PvE will be adjusted to account for the nerfed values of these spells. This helps out the "casual" PvE players more so than any other group since now monsters are being adjusted downwards AND the spells the monsters have access to are being toned down to better fit balance standards.

      Name:  Devs Speak 3.PNG
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      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      There is no such a thing as "consistency issue" here. That is the Blunt, simple, binary excuse that was advocated by a couple of devs for this disgraceful change. People that actually play balance know better.

      Mana burn was removing 3 physical pips.

      That is, 3 slots out of 7. If you only had PP, it would remove a total value of 6, yes. But if you had 1, 2 or 3 normal pips, those would go away instead before the rest.

      Except for PVP players, where most people have boosted PP chance, or latest PVE bosses with tons of health, cheats and all sort of boosts, in every fight foes have at least one or two white pips, most of the time, when their pip amounts 9 or above (see my previous post for the 9-pips value issue).
      So they would lose those first, and one or two PP to complete.

      And again, this was compensatory with the facts that 1) spell isn't enchantable 2) spell is convenient only at some very specific moments of the battle.
      Devs did not take this into account during their butchering session.

      They instead listened to some silly kid who cried "boohoo, i lose in PVP because I fill my pips bar to cast a big storm spell and can't wipe the evil balance wizard since he keeps mana burning me! Unfair! I want to cast my 50k damage on a 4k health wizard who can't go beyond 13K with the same amount of blades as I have!"

      The proper answer would have been "kid learn to play", but no, they thought "ok, let's nerf".

      Most PvE players in optimal gear have been running 100% power pips since darkmoor(and certain classes since waterworks) so that assertion is false. But at any rate: 3 pips of value =/= to 3 pip slots of value - when you gain 3 pips with empower you never gain 3 power pips by chance. I do agree with you that the relative loss of utility should be compensated by allowing mana burn to be enchanted.

      Name:  Eric Mana Burn.PNG
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      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      Same as they nerfed dispels, stuns etc.. Due to PVP whiners, instead of explaining that the game had mechanics to counter them naturally - like the anti-stun gear, for instance, that nobody wore or wears (guess what : except me..).

      Dispels remain unchanged in PvE and stuns had to receive a nerf simply due to the fact that w/o a nerf any myth or fire(or player with a myth/fire mastery) could simply lock out an entire team of mobs indefinitely in PvE. Even then: stun's relative nerf is marginal in PvE compared to how it functions in PvP.

      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      As of Loremaster, again and once for all it was not OP.
      First of all, there isn't such a thing as a "balance spells standard". There are average damage outputs per pip values, that far from being a reference can be used to evaluate the interest of a spell. And there are average effect costs that complete a multi card like that. But there is also a reward scale to be taken into account, the global boost power, and history.
      Old LM average dpp was 430; average dpp for the oldest 4-pips balance card is 451,6. So no, it wasn't "above".
      If at beginning of the game every school was specialized and unique, that is today way old history. A class meant to be hitter with disadvantages on health/Healing now get heals and good gear health boosts/resists. A class meant to be healer with no AOE now get two decent AoEs. And so on. Most classes have been made less unique by adding the missing spells to correct their weaknesses.
      And the only class whose uniqueness was to have a bit of everything, but never as efficient as every one else ("good at everything, but excellent in nothing") was left in that limbo.
      All other classes have specific boosts (school blades) whose power is between 30 and 45 damage boost. Balance have the "universals" whose power goes between 20 and 25 (same with traps). So with a same base damage output and boosts, balance is doomed to a lesser hit on their opponent compared to any other school. That is why elemental spells were (and still are) among the most used, as they could take advantage of a second blade from elemental school.
      Except, that would cost one extra pip, and delay the hit by one round. In short, compared to storm, fire, death, myth, or even ice (the defense-based school), balance was hitting way less.
      If this was ok when all schools were unique, the disruption of uniqueness brought the issue of revamping balance in some way to avoid it falling behind.
      That was meant to be achieved with 4 spells: mana burn, loremaster, ninja piglets and supernova. These spells, albeit a bit more powerful than the previous balance ones, were restrained by some limitations: two were hard to obtain, two were condition spells, one could not be enchanted. Power was balanced by accuracy, rareness, conditions or a mix of the three.
      And all of them only worked with said weaker balance blades, which means that the power curve to enahance their damage output would always be lower than the one of other schools.
      Ye, binary people tend to take into account only "base damage".
      But the way you boost that base damage matters too.
      Nobody finds strange that a storm wizard, with 2 blades, achieves 50k+ damage. Well with equivalent cards, the maximum damage ouput a balance wizard can achieve with two blades is below 25K. If you do your maths on any 4-pips spell from schools other than balance, you'll notice that most (actually all but AoEs) outweighted the old loremaster output in the same way.
      That for the "average damage output", "global boost power" and "history".
      Then on the "rewards" subject: I said it before, once you give a reward to a player, you can't just remove it lightly on a whim.
      It may be your game, but what makes it successful is us players being there. That we expect some form of respect in return is pretty normal, imho.
      This spell was a reward from a pretty difficult task. It wasn't one of those that you'll get no matter what, you have to work hard to get it. So asking people to make that effort was part of a silent agreement to reward them with an useful card. Card stats and boost curve were still below the avarage of other schools - again, take into account every boost schools have, gear, blades and traps, not just base damage!
      That card being made useless (do tell me how many people use it today? I asked this at a KI live, how many casts since the nerf, they didn't dare to answer that one!) , is purely and simply a breach of said agreement. As a result trust between balance player base and KI has been disrupted.
      The sad truth is that loremaster was ok the way it was.
      BUT, if spellments were to come on 4-pips cards, then yes, boosting it in any way would make it way OP. And since we all know that spellments are meant to be implemented on a lot of cards, in time, that is where the need for a nerf arised.
      If there really were "school spells standards" and "balancing rules" I'd want KI to finally make those public for all schools and spell categories.
      And then i'd lol at how many items DO NOT fall in line with them.
      There are certain damage standards that are implemented to balance the school's relative power. You'll notice that for the most part spells follow within certain ranges. This is why outlier spells tend to stand out so much.

      As for loremaster itself- Old Loremaster's damage per pip was on average 107.5 dpp with 2 disruptive effects. This is a higher dpp than any non conditional balance damage spell had ever received, higher even than sabertooth.

      Spectral Blast does not use Balance's native dpp. It simply borrows the average for either Ice, Fire or Storm's original dpp values for their 4 pip spells.

      Balance's lack of/relative weakness in universal buffs is in direct response to the scarcity/relative weakness of universal debuffs to the school.

      I too would love for KI to make the balancing rules more public and Developers(specifically Mattnetic) have been expounding those rules on twitter.

      I do agree that many spells fall outside the new spell balance rules(whether due to changing priorities or reasons that may have been lost in time with the change of devs). That's why I would love a full spell audit and am heartened to see the Devs are leaning towards that.

      P.S- To illustrate exactly how overpowered Loremaster was- Mattnetic shared with players that Loremaster(a single spell belonging to 1/7 of the schools) was the most used spell in PvP- tied with tower shield- the universal shield that has been considered a PvP staple since it's inception used by ALL 7 classes.
      Last edited by Willowdreamer; 6-27-20 at 8:41:30 AM. Reason: double posted

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    5. #35
        richardDkht is offline Journeyman Wizard
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      Re: KI Live Summer Test Realm Teaser

      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post

      Most PvE players in optimal gear have been running 100% power pips since darkmoor(and certain classes since waterworks) so that assertion is false.
      This is just proving my point, read my sentence again. The assertion is perfectly right and fits with what you are saying. I was talking about the MOBS having normal pips not the PLAYERS.

      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post

      Dispels remain unchanged in PvE and stuns had to receive a nerf simply due to the fact that w/o a nerf any myth or fire(or player with a myth/fire mastery) could simply lock out an entire team of mobs indefinitely in PvE
      No that's wrong.
      Stun wasn't nerfed in PVE as far as I remember. It always gave one stun shield. However it was nerfed in PVP because people complained being stunned continuously by 2 opponent players and killed by the others in 3vs3 and 4vs4, so in the end KI gave a stun shield per opponent, there. In PVE, two players can still keep the foes stunned until the rest of the team ends the fight. That why more and more bosses were made with stun immunity.

      The right answer for stuns should have been to explain that you can achieve about 70-80% anti-stun if you gear properly. We used to do that, back in time (and there were no jewels, then).

      The right answer for dispels should have been to explain that you can counter them with various strategies (using a multi-dispel yorself, or from another school, for example, or using 0-pip spells etc.. one can only carry so many dispels in their deck, and they are costly; if you prevent them from reshuffling they won't be able to recast).

      In the same way, the right answer to a double debuff would be to prevent one (with extra accuracy, for example) and to counter the other (with an extra blade TC, for example). And to be honest, had they changed just ONE parameter (the debuffs OR the damage) it may have been acceptable. But they just went with the axe and cut everything down.

      my point is: there was equilibrium in PVP at the beginning, and devs disrupted it more and more making this kind of grossed changes with a simplified logic in mind. They should have looked at PVP as a whole. And i'm taking it as an example to show why the same grossed simplified logic destroyed two PVE perfectly balanced cards.

      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post

      P.S- To illustrate exactly how overpowered Loremaster was- Mattnetic shared with players that Loremaster(a single spell belonging to 1/7 of the schools) was the most used spell in PvP- tied with tower shield- the universal shield that has been considered a PvP staple since it's inception used by ALL 7 classes.
      I have no doubt that a spell that gives two decent effects and a damage will be used very often in PVP. It saves space and time.

      But the statistical proportion of 1/7 is already corrupting data.
      Yes balance is a school out of seven, but you don't know if 99% or 1% of PVP players in the analyzed time frame were from that school. Nor how many of those had balance as a second school.

      So if it is the most used spell, it may have been also that there were mostly balance players. Or not. But said as it is, there is nothing showing for the sake of the "overpowered" argument.

      In the end that doesn't prove the spell to be OP. It proves that PVP is broken and most PVPers are just bad at it, lacking any sort of fantasy.

      I was a 1st age warlord, btw, and at that time there was no loremaster. I guess at that time, if we had looked at stats, the most used spell would be balanceblade! Do we need to nerf it???

      If balance people end among the top players, PERHAPS it's because they are used to strategical thinking, due to the way their school is set up; and PERHAPS if devs implemented something that pushed other schools toward the same strategical thinking, instead of the usual linear "blades/feint/Big hit" there wouldn't be any need for nerfing spells over and over.

      But what that person's explanation also proves is that this change again was PVP oriented, NOT a PVE need.

      In PVE, the spell was perfectly balanced, but engineers are thick sometimes, and they fail to see the flaws in their reasoning. So to cut short, they just use a chainsaw where a scalpel would be needed.

      As of spectral blast, the spell does average based on elemental schools, but if we analyze the average of all schools we also end up on balance damage values. At the same time that spell is 100%balance, taking advantage of balance boosts (gear included). So it must be considered as a balance reference no matter the output class.
      And if it is true that there is no balance shield, there also is no balance weakness. So that was taken care of as well since the beginning, PVE-Wise (95% of mobs only shield against their school of weakness).

      All in all, there has never been a written rule saying "this school must have exactly this average damage on all its spells" -or it has never been implemented-, and that was what made spells strategy interesting.
      Some would be slightly below an average with effects, some slightly above with conditions. Hard to get spells would be a bit above the edge, making them worthwhile to grind.

      Flattening out everything to a same table is what is making the game DULL.

    6. #36
      goldendragon18's Avatar
        goldendragon18 is offline Master Wizard

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      Re: KI Live Summer Test Realm Teaser

      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post
      As can be seen in the third screenshot in my first post in this thread- the devs have stated that PvE will be adjusted to account for the nerfed values of these spells. This helps out the "casual" PvE players more so than any other group since now monsters are being adjusted downwards AND the spells the monsters have access to are being toned down to better fit balance standards.

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      Most PvE players in optimal gear have been running 100% power pips since darkmoor(and certain classes since waterworks) so that assertion is false. But at any rate: 3 pips of value =/= to 3 pip slots of value - when you gain 3 pips with empower you never gain 3 power pips by chance. I do agree with you that the relative loss of utility should be compensated by allowing mana burn to be enchanted.

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      Dispels remain unchanged in PvE and stuns had to receive a nerf simply due to the fact that w/o a nerf any myth or fire(or player with a myth/fire mastery) could simply lock out an entire team of mobs indefinitely in PvE. Even then: stun's relative nerf is marginal in PvE compared to how it functions in PvP.



      There are certain damage standards that are implemented to balance the school's relative power. You'll notice that for the most part spells follow within certain ranges. This is why outlier spells tend to stand out so much.

      As for loremaster itself- Old Loremaster's damage per pip was on average 107.5 dpp with 2 disruptive effects. This is a higher dpp than any non conditional balance damage spell had ever received, higher even than sabertooth.

      Spectral Blast does not use Balance's native dpp. It simply borrows the average for either Ice, Fire or Storm's original dpp values for their 4 pip spells.

      Balance's lack of/relative weakness in universal buffs is in direct response to the scarcity/relative weakness of universal debuffs to the school.

      I too would love for KI to make the balancing rules more public and Developers(specifically Mattnetic) have been expounding those rules on twitter.

      I do agree that many spells fall outside the new spell balance rules(whether due to changing priorities or reasons that may have been lost in time with the change of devs). That's why I would love a full spell audit and am heartened to see the Devs are leaning towards that.

      P.S- To illustrate exactly how overpowered Loremaster was- Mattnetic shared with players that Lmaster(a single spell belonging to 1/7 of the schools) was the most used spell in PvP- tied with tower shield- the universal shield that has been considered a PvP staple since it's inception used by ALL 7 classes.
      Of course mobs and bosses will be adjusted in PvE because they have no choice in order to accommodate PvP. The monsters in the newer worlds have been much harder for the casual player because not too far in the past, there was that Scream for HARD content. Ok, so a few new spells are a bit stronger UNTIL they become an issue in PVP.

      But in all honesty, even if those bosses are adjusted down, in some cases, it isn't or won't be enough for the Casual player. By looking ahead at what my wizards will face in Empyrea with all the CHEATS and massive numbers of INSTANCES (with cheating bosses at the end of most) chances are, those changes still aren't going to be enough. With boss health ranging from Medulla at 100k health to Storm Titan at 1 million health and dealt damage with Trident Swipe that can wipe out a team doesn't sound like much fun. Even if those numbers are adjusted down, many casual players are still going to struggle.

      Those that have already struggled through Darkmoor to get the lvl 108 Shadow spell are literally being told it was all for nothing. Then there is the lvl 118 that can be used as a single hit or divided between the number of monsters. Then comes lvl 125 Scion Spells that can do double damage if certain conditions are met. Oh, wait, those aren't Shadow enhanced so, technically, those won't be touched since they are also 11 PIP spells. Not likely to be used in PvP for that reason.


      Since Loremaster seems to be the one non-shadow enhanced spell that was chopped up in the most recent nerf, a spell that many balance wizards worked hard to acquire the reagents and the level needed to craft it, again, useless. Why, OP in PvP. But it WAS a defensive spell for PvE. It could and sometimes did make the difference in a win or loss. Since Balance is basically considered a SUPPORT wizard, nerfing Loremaster was not a good move in PvE.

      Oh, but PvE players DON'T HAVE A VESTED INTEREST. PvP players do because they are fighting each other in the Arena. It doesn't matter that every spell nerfed for PvP is hurting PvE.

      My 2 main wizards are both lvl 125 and sitting near the end of Mirage. Neither of them have the lvl 118 nor the lvl 125 spells, and main fire still needs the lvl 108. At this point, they will sit where they are. I started playing this game for the fun, enjoyment and relaxation I found that allowed the real world to fade for a few hours. All of that is quickly fading from the game. It is becoming more frustration than fun.

      No matter how or what excuses are used, the whole reason for nerfing spells in PvE is to accommodate PvP. PvP was broken within the first year it was implemented. It should have been scrapped and rebuilt then. AND with it's own set of spells. Yes, I did PvP when it was first released. I probably would still be playing if it weren't for the rudeness and foul language that erupted shortly after.


      EDIT: True most PvE players don't get involved with this kind of discussion but when the damage is done, they do come out on the main site forums. It happens every time.
      Last edited by goldendragon18; 6-27-20 at 12:06:49 PM.

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    7. #37
      Patrick FairyStalker's Avatar
        Patrick FairyStalker is offline Master Wizard
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      Re: KI Live Summer Test Realm Teaser

      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      Stun wasn't nerfed in PVE as far as I remember. It always gave one stun shield. However it was nerfed in PVP because people complained being stunned continuously by 2 opponent players and killed by the others in 3vs3 and 4vs4, so in the end KI gave a stun shield per opponent, there. In PVE, two players can still keep the foes stunned until the rest of the team ends the fight. That why more and more bosses were made with stun immunity.

      The right answer for stuns should have been to explain that you can achieve about 70-80% anti-stun if you gear properly. We used to do that, back in time (and there were no jewels, then).

      The right answer for dispels should have been to explain that you can counter them with various strategies (using a multi-dispel yorself, or from another school, for example, or using 0-pip spells etc.. one can only carry so many dispels in their deck, and they are costly; if you prevent them from reshuffling they won't be able to recast).
      I'm speaking not only for stuns/dispels, but every spell in the game. Just because a spell can be countered doesn't mean it's well-balanced.

      Stun and dispel spamming requires no strategy. It's just spam. And KI's vision of PvP is beyond just spamming in the arena. I carry this logic in nerfing loremaster.

      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      I have no doubt that a spell that gives two decent effects and a damage will be used very often in PVP. It saves space and time.

      But the statistical proportion of 1/7 is already corrupting data.
      Yes balance is a school out of seven, but you don't know if 99% or 1% of PVP players in the analyzed time frame were from that school. Nor how many of those had balance as a second school.

      So if it is the most used spell, it may have been also that there were mostly balance players. Or not. But said as it is, there is nothing showing for the sake of the "overpowered" argument.

      In the end that doesn't prove the spell to be OP. It proves that PVP is broken and most PVPers are just bad at it, lacking any sort of fantasy.
      I'm not sure where you're going here. Loremaster is one of the top most using spells, and that's a problem whether or not balance is well-represented.

      If 99% of the arena was filled with balances, that's a problem. One school is dominating the arena. And their most used spell is loremaster.
      If 14% (1/7) of the arena was balances, then it's absolutely a problem that loremaster is #1. It means balances are almost purely using a single spell, and it's somehow outpacing every other school in the arena.

      Same with every % in-between.

      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post

      I was a 1st age warlord, btw, and at that time there was no loremaster. I guess at that time, if we had looked at stats, the most used spell would be balanceblade! Do we need to nerf it???

      If balance people end among the top players, PERHAPS it's because they are used to strategical thinking, due to the way their school is set up; and PERHAPS if devs implemented something that pushed other schools toward the same strategical thinking, instead of the usual linear "blades/feint/Big hit" there wouldn't be any need for nerfing spells over and over.

      But what that person's explanation also proves is that this change again was PVP oriented, NOT a PVE need.
      Yes, perhaps balances were just very strategical. Or perhaps, you can look at the most obvious reason: the most used spell is overused because it provides way too much utility and damage, with no drawbacks.


      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      In PVE, the spell was perfectly balanced, but engineers are thick sometimes, and they fail to see the flaws in their reasoning. So to cut short, they just use a chainsaw where a scalpel would be needed.

      As of spectral blast, the spell does average based on elemental schools, but if we analyze the average of all schools we also end up on balance damage values. At the same time that spell is 100%balance, taking advantage of balance boosts (gear included). So it must be considered as a balance reference no matter the output class.
      And if it is true that there is no balance shield, there also is no balance weakness. So that was taken care of as well since the beginning, PVE-Wise (95% of mobs only shield against their school of weakness).

      All in all, there has never been a written rule saying "this school must have exactly this average damage on all its spells" -or it has never been implemented-, and that was what made spells strategy interesting.
      Some would be slightly below an average with effects, some slightly above with conditions. Hard to get spells would be a bit above the edge, making them worthwhile to grind.

      Flattening out everything to a same table is what is making the game DULL.
      I want you challenge your last sentence there. Flattening out everything is exactly how to make the game interesting.

      If loremaster is balance's unequivocally strongest spell, then they have no reason to use any other spell. They will always use loremaster, with the occasional shadow spell.

      Now, in the arena, balances are forced to be more creative in their strategies. Is it a perfectly balanced PvP school? No, not yet. But it's miles ahead of "lore, lore, lore".


      If you want to continue discussing PvP, I encourage you to watch or play in some matches. I, too, was a 1st age Warlord on multiple wizards. PvP is the most balanced it's ever been in Wizard101 history. Just because 1st age has the shine of nostalgia (which I would love to go back to), doesn't mean schools were well-balanced.

      I also encourage you to engage in activities before making unnecessarily strong comments against the dev team. KI is being more responsive to community feedback than ever before. Meanwhile, you haven't even been in the arena for a while. And, because I have an agenda, this includes your anti-derby sentiment, too.
      Last edited by Patrick FairyStalker; 6-27-20 at 12:28:23 PM.

    8. #38
        richardDkht is offline Journeyman Wizard
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      Re: KI Live Summer Test Realm Teaser

      Quote Originally Posted by Patrick FairyStalker View Post
      I'm speaking not only for stuns/dispels, but every spell in the game. Just because a spell can be countered doesn't mean it's well-balanced.
      It's not the spell that can be countered, it's the strategy related to it. Which yes, makes it well-balanced.

      Else i'm gonna tell you that spells that can yeld 12K damage with a few blades are OP and need nerfing to stop one-shot killing (which happens more than half of the time in PVP).


      Stun and dispel spamming requires no strategy. It's just spam. And KI's vision of PvP is beyond just spamming in the arena. I carry this logic in nerfing loremaster.
      Stun and dispel spamming will be disastrous for the caster Vs a prepared player.


      I'm not sure where you're going here.
      It's basic analysis of statistical data. In short, you can't say that because one event happens without spécifications of the context that the event is over represented or what the causes for the over-representation are.

      But yeah, ok.

      I want you challenge your last sentence there. Flattening out everything is exactly how to make the game interesting.

      If loremaster is balance's unequivocally strongest spell, then they have no reason to use any other spell. They will always use loremaster, with the occasional shadow spell.
      Then explain why one of the main arguments of people asking for this nerf was "nobody uses loremaster in PVE anyway".

      LM has never been balance strongest spell. It was a strategical spell. This from PVE point of view. And as far as I wouldn't care for it to be PVP-banned, I do feel cheated for it to be made close to useless in PVE.



      If you want to continue discussing PvP, I encourage you to watch or play in some matches. I, too, was a 1st age Warlord on multiple wizards. PvP is the most balanced it's ever been in Wizard101 history. Just because 1st age has the shine of nostalgia (which I would love to go back to), doesn't mean schools were well-balanced.

      I also encourage you to engage in activities before making unnecessarily strong comments against the dev team. KI is being more responsive to community feedback than ever before. Meanwhile, you haven't even been in the arena for a while. And, because I have an agenda, this includes your anti-derby sentiment, too.
      Sure. That is surely why KI is talking about totally rebuilding PVP. It's so well balanced that everyone plays it on a daily basis lol!

      And I did play some matches when I came back, there is no nostalgia there. But several reasons made me stop pretty quick. PVP is the most unbalanced it's ever been.
      And my strong comments against devs (and engineers in general) are well deserved considering how cheated I have been by these nerfs.

      At the end of the day, you are right, I don't care anymore about PVP be it player or derby. But as long as the changes made to PVP influence my PVE environment, I do have the right to complain, and that's what I'm doing since the beginning of this thread, that I will now leave.

      And since "KI is listening", listen to this: Give me back my PVE gaming experience before these nerfs and I'll be satisfied with that.

      Now let's see what they'll do? I bet nothing of the sort.

    9. #39
      Eric Stormbringer's Avatar
        Eric Stormbringer is offline Grandmaster Wizard

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      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      This is just proving my point, read my sentence again. The assertion is perfectly right and fits with what you are saying. I was talking about the MOBS having normal pips not the PLAYERS.
      No that's wrong.
      Stun wasn't nerfed in PVE as far as I remember. It always gave one stun shield. However it was nerfed in PVP because people complained being stunned continuously by 2 opponent players and killed by the others in 3vs3 and 4vs4, so in the end KI gave a stun shield per opponent, there. In PVE, two players can still keep the foes stunned until the rest of the team ends the fight. That why more and more bosses were made with stun immunity.
      The right answer for stuns should have been to explain that you can achieve about 70-80% anti-stun if you gear properly. We used to do that, back in time (and there were no jewels, then).

      That's incorrect. PvE auto stun block was added in the same update as PvP auto stun block. Stun block gear (especially in the ages you are citing) required sacrifices in stats that made it non-viable in PvP. Simply because a counter exists, does not make that counter viable.

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      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      he right answer for dispels should have been to explain that you can counter them with various strategies (using a multi-dispel yorself, or from another school, for example, or using 0-pip spells etc.. one can only carry so many dispels in their deck, and they are costly; if you prevent them from reshuffling they won't be able to recast).

      This became incorrect from the moment shadow enhanced spells were introduced. A player would simply chain dispel until they received a shadow pip- hit their opponent- shield and then repeat. This was virtually un-counterable in mirror matches and necessitated a change. Multi-dispels are also no PvP outside of the defuses.

      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      In the same way, the right answer to a double debuff would be to prevent one (with extra accuracy, for example) and to counter the other (with an extra blade TC, for example). And to be honest, had they changed just ONE parameter (the debuffs OR the damage) it may have been acceptable. But they just went with the axe and cut everything down.


      The incredible role compression of Loremaster offers one of the strongest reasons for it's nerf outside of the obvious fact that it's values were inherently overtuned. In order to counter loremaster you had to

      -Wear high accuracy gear(sacrificing stats in other areas)
      -Enhance your spells with accuracy enchants(Cutting a significant chunk of damage from the spell)
      -Cast a blade(leaving you completely unprotected)

      Meanwhile in one turn the balance dealt above dpp damage, reduced your accuracy(possibly buying them a free round) and reduced your hit.

      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      my point is: there was equilibrium in PVP at the beginning, and devs disrupted it more and more making this kind of grossed changes with a simplified logic in mind. They should have looked at PVP as a whole. And i'm taking it as an example to show why the same grossed simplified logic destroyed two PVE perfectly balanced cards.
      I have no doubt that a spell that gives two decent effects and a damage will be used very often in PVP. It saves space and time.
      But the statistical proportion of 1/7 is already corrupting data.
      Yes balance is a school out of seven, but you don't know if 99% or 1% of PVP players in the analyzed time frame were from that school. Nor how many of those had balance as a second school.
      So if it is the most used spell, it may have been also that there were mostly balance players. Or not. But said as it is, there is nothing showing for the sake of the "overpowered" argument.
      In the end that doesn't prove the spell to be OP. It proves that PVP is broken and most PVPers are just bad at it, lacking any sort of fantasy.

      Actually in the same argument- Mattnetic confirmed that Balance was the 4th school in terms of usage rate. I don't know how to tell you that if one spell belonging to 1/7 of one school that is the (4th most used) school overall is the most used spell in the game- that spell is OP. That's obvious.

      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      I was a 1st age warlord, btw, and at that time there was no loremaster. I guess at that time, if we had looked at stats, the most used spell would be balanceblade! Do we need to nerf it???
      If balance people end among the top players, PERHAPS it's because they are used to strategical thinking, due to the way their school is set up; and PERHAPS if devs implemented something that pushed other schools toward the same strategical thinking, instead of the usual linear "blades/feint/Big hit" there wouldn't be any need for nerfing spells over and over.
      But what that person's explanation also proves is that this change again was PVP oriented, NOT a PVE need.

      I'm a PvP warlord in every age, im not sure what that has to do with the nerfs to lore. Balance players simply being better is an interesting theory but is not really provable so its neither here now there.

      Yes, the Lore change was mostly PvP oriented- but all changes aren't and the changes to the shadow spells in general are not. Case in point- Storm has the confirmed lowest winrate of all the schools yet glowbug squall will likely take the heaviest nerf in the upcoming Shadow spell revamp.

      Quote Originally Posted by richardDkht View Post
      In PVE, the spell was perfectly balanced, but engineers are thick sometimes, and they fail to see the flaws in their reasoning. So to cut short, they just use a chainsaw where a scalpel would be needed.
      As of spectral blast, the spell does average based on elemental schools, but if we analyze the average of all schools we also end up on balance damage values. At the same time that spell is 100%balance, taking advantage of balance boosts (gear included). So it must be considered as a balance reference no matter the output class.
      And if it is true that there is no balance shield, there also is no balance weakness. So that was taken care of as well since the beginning, PVE-Wise (95% of mobs only shield against their school of weakness).
      All in all, there has never been a written rule saying "this school must have exactly this average damage on all its spells" -or it has never been implemented-, and that was what made spells strategy interesting.
      Some would be slightly below an average with effects, some slightly above with conditions. Hard to get spells would be a bit above the edge, making them worthwhile to grind.
      Flattening out everything to a same table is what is making the game DULL.
      The average of all schools is not balance damage- that's never held true at any pip level- You can check it yourself. Lore as it is right now is still overvalued, especially under the new spell balance rules expounded.


      Quote Originally Posted by goldendragon18 View Post
      Of course mobs and bosses will be adjusted in PvE because they have no choice in order to accommodate PvP. The monsters in the newer worlds have been much harder for the casual player because not too far in the past, there was that Scream for HARD content. Ok, so a few new spells are a bit stronger UNTIL they become an issue in PVP.

      But in all honesty, even if those bosses are adjusted down, in some cases, it isn't or won't be enough for the Casual player. By looking ahead at what my wizards will face in Empyrea with all the CHEATS and massive numbers of INSTANCES (with cheating bosses at the end of most) chances are, those changes still aren't going to be enough. With boss health ranging from Medulla at 100k health to Storm Titan at 1 million health and dealt damage with Trident Swipe that can wipe out a team doesn't sound like much fun. Even if those numbers are adjusted down, many casual players are still going to struggle.

      Those that have already struggled through Darkmoor to get the lvl 108 Shadow spell are literally being told it was all for nothing. Then there is the lvl 118 that can be used as a single hit or divided between the number of monsters. Then comes lvl 125 Scion Spells that can do double damage if certain conditions are met. Oh, wait, those aren't Shadow enhanced so, technically, those won't be touched since they are also 11 PIP spells. Not likely to be used in PvP for that reason.


      Since Loremaster seems to be the one non-shadow enhanced spell that was chopped up in the most recent nerf, a spell that many balance wizards worked hard to acquire the reagents and the level needed to craft it, again, useless. Why, OP in PvP. But it WAS a defensive spell for PvE. It could and sometimes did make the difference in a win or loss. Since Balance is basically considered a SUPPORT wizard, nerfing Loremaster was not a good move in PvE.

      Oh, but PvE players DON'T HAVE A VESTED INTEREST. PvP players do because they are fighting each other in the Arena. It doesn't matter that every spell nerfed for PvP is hurting PvE.

      My 2 main wizards are both lvl 125 and sitting near the end of Mirage. Neither of them have the lvl 118 nor the lvl 125 spells, and main fire still needs the lvl 108. At this point, they will sit where they are. I started playing this game for the fun, enjoyment and relaxation I found that allowed the real world to fade for a few hours. All of that is quickly fading from the game. It is becoming more frustration than fun.

      No matter how or what excuses are used, the whole reason for nerfing spells in PvE is to accommodate PvP. PvP was broken within the first year it was implemented. It should have been scrapped and rebuilt then. AND with it's own set of spells. Yes, I did PvP when it was first released. I probably would still be playing if it weren't for the rudeness and foul language that erupted shortly after.


      EDIT: True most PvE players don't get involved with this kind of discussion but when the damage is done, they do come out on the main site forums. It happens every time.
      Ironically, I was just debating on twitter with a user who was of the opposite view- that PvE is too easy and that nerfing the shadow spells will make PvE even easier. Alas, that's the tightrope the devs have to walk. That being said, the devs have already provided reasons for why these changes have to happen from a PvE perspective. Whether you accept that logic or not is really what this boils down to.
      Last edited by Willowdreamer; 6-27-20 at 8:57:20 PM. Reason: double posted

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    10. #40
      goldendragon18's Avatar
        goldendragon18 is offline Master Wizard

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      Re: KI Live Summer Test Realm Teaser

      Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stormbringer View Post

      Ironically, I was just debating on twitter with a user who was of the opposite view- that PvE is too easy and that nerfing the shadow spells will make PvE even easier. Alas, that's the tightrope the devs have to walk. That being said, the devs have already provided reasons for why these changes have to happen from a PvE perspective. Whether you accept that logic or not is really what this boils down to.
      Apparently, that player must be one who is what we used to call "Hardcore". The harder the challenge the better some like it.

      Once again, it does not matter what those of us that don't PvP say. PvE will become even less fun and more challenging.

      It does no good to try to salvage anything in the game anymore where PvE is concerned. As usual, PvP gets the final say.

      As for what the Devs have provided, none of that information gets to Central or even the main forums. All of those are now on Twitter, Switch and other platforms that most don't subscribe to. Nothing is explained.

      Fallon WinterLeaf


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