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    1. #1
        Mayonnaisinator is online now Wiki Master
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      Question Consistency on Spell Pages

      Hi!
      I want to help work on updating the Spell, Item Card, and Treasure Card pages to be 'text only', and generally consistent with wiki guidelines. I do have a few questions regarding how certain things should be done, so the pages can be overall the same across the board:
      1. Is there a definitive list of what words should or should not be capitalised? I was under the impression that any 'game terms', such as Health, Damage, Mana, Spell, any of the school names, etc. should be capitalised, however many pages differ on these - especially whether or not 'Spell' should be capitalised.
      2. Steal Health spells such as Ghoul or Vampire don't mention that they deal Death Damage. While I understand that they don't include the Death symbol on the card itself, the spells do deal Death Damage as can be seen with resistances, and if there were ever to be a non-Death steal spell introduced, this could cause it to be unclear as to what type of damage is being dealt. Also, some pages describe the steal effect in different ways, such as the differences between Ghoul and Scion of Death (which strangely does feature the Death symbol in its in-game spell text...)
      3. Should spells that apply secondary effects, such as Power Nova or Handsome Fomori, link to the pages for their secondary effects (Weakness and Black Mantle respectively), as can be seen on Power Nova's page? While it could provide clarity for a spell like Power Nova, whose Weakness effect is equal in power to the standard spell Weakness, Handsome Fomori's accuracy debuff is weaker than the standard Black Mantle spell, so this could cause confusion as to the strength of the debuff.


      I'd like to hear some of your thoughts on these points, as I wouldn't want to jump into this without seeing what other people think first. I may even add to this post if I can think of some other questions.
      I hope this isn't too confusing or annoying!
      Mayo

    2. #2
      AluraMist's Avatar
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      Re: Consistency on Spell Pages

      Thank you for taking the time to ask about these changes before actually working on the Wiki pages.

      I will try to answer your questions (highlighted in bold below) as best I can.

      Keep in mind that this is a fairly new change to the Wiki (transitioning to text only), and you may find that we are 'learning as we go' to find the best approach for the Wiki pages.

      I would ask that the other Wiki Masters reply on this also, in case my understanding for these changes differs from theirs:
      @FritzFunBringer @Monochromatic Bunny @Pyro @RedValkyre99 @Zane


      So here is my feedback (in bold below) ...

      Quote Originally Posted by Mayonnaisinator View Post
      Hi!
      I want to help work on updating the Spell, Item Card, and Treasure Card pages to be 'text only', and generally consistent with wiki guidelines. I do have a few questions regarding how certain things should be done, so the pages can be overall the same across the board:

      1. Is there a definitive list of what words should or should not be capitalised? I was under the impression that any 'game terms', such as Health, Damage, Mana, Spell, any of the school names, etc. should be capitalised, however many pages differ on these - especially whether or not 'Spell' should be capitalised.

        You impression is correct. The "Formal Terms" used in the game should be capitalized, as it mentions in the Editing Guide. There are times myself where this is overlooked (like today), and there are times when I am 'patrolling the edits' on the Recent Changes List daily, where this is not always strictly followed (as an oversight). Please feel free to edit any of those pages.

      2. Steal Health spells such as Ghoul or Vampire don't mention that they deal Death Damage. While I understand that they don't include the Death symbol on the card itself, the spells do deal Death Damage as can be seen with resistances, and if there were ever to be a non-Death steal spell introduced, this could cause it to be unclear as to what type of damage is being dealt. Also, some pages describe the steal effect in different ways, such as the differences between Ghoul and Scion of Death (which strangely does feature the Death symbol in its in-game spell text...)

        Again, it is a learning process for us with the 'wording' on some of these Spells, especially with new Spells coming out with more detail needed. Your suggestion to change the wording to include the Death Damage info sounds good.

        I don't have a solution to wording for the Steal effects.


      3. Should spells that apply secondary effects, such as Power Nova or Handsome Fomori, link to the pages for their secondary effects (Weakness and Black Mantle respectively), as can be seen on Power Nova's page? While it could provide clarity for a spell like Power Nova, whose Weakness effect is equal in power to the standard spell Weakness, Handsome Fomori's accuracy debuff is weaker than the standard Black Mantle spell, so this could cause confusion as to the strength of the debuff.


      I believe that including the 'links' to the secondary effects is fairly new to the Spell pages. I feel that they should be included. Would like to hear what the other Wiki Masters think about this. ??

      I'd like to hear some of your thoughts on these points, as I wouldn't want to jump into this without seeing what other people think first. I may even add to this post if I can think of some other questions.

      To start working on editing the Spell pages, I would suggest that you attempt 'just a few' so we can see how this goes, rather than doing a "mass edit" on many Spells at one time. If you watch the Recent Changes List, I usually make 'editing comments' when I make changes to any edits / entries, so that Contributors know what I changed, and why. Hopefully that helps. ??


      I hope this isn't too confusing or annoying!
      Mayo

      Not at all confusing, and I do appreciate the fact that you took the time to raise these questions, before attempting to change the Wiki pages. Also, thank you for all of your recent edits / entries on the Wiki too. That is always appreciated!

      AluraMist

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    3. #3
        Mayonnaisinator is online now Wiki Master
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      Question Re: Consistency on Spell Pages

      I'm coming back to this now, mainly due to the Summer Spell Audit, and I wanted to ask about something else that I've noticed.

      Should spells that affect all teammates (including yourself) say "... to self and all allies", or just "... to all allies"? For example, should Pigsie say "Restores 550 Health to self and all allies", or just "Restores 550 Health to all allies".

      I think the best way to solve this is to figure out what the game considers "Allies", and whether that includes yourself. I think this could be done using the Pet Talents such as "Ally Tower Shield", that casts Tower Shield onto an Ally. I am unsure if this Talent can cast onto yourself or not, but if it can, then I think the latter wording option is preferred, since the game considers yourself to be included in "Allies", so including "to self" in the spell description is unnecessary.

      I've been making a lot of changes to the updated spells, which I hope is ok, but I'm trying to make them uniform in their spelling, formatting and capitalisation.

    4. #4
      AluraMist's Avatar
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      Re: Consistency on Spell Pages

      Quote Originally Posted by Mayonnaisinator View Post
      I'm coming back to this now, mainly due to the Summer Spell Audit, and I wanted to ask about something else that I've noticed.

      Should spells that affect all teammates (including yourself) say "... to self and all allies", or just "... to all allies"? For example, should Pigsie say "Restores 550 Health to self and all allies", or just "Restores 550 Health to all allies".

      I think the best way to solve this is to figure out what the game considers "Allies", and whether that includes yourself. I think this could be done using the Pet Talents such as "Ally Tower Shield", that casts Tower Shield onto an Ally. I am unsure if this Talent can cast onto yourself or not, but if it can, then I think the latter wording option is preferred, since the game considers yourself to be included in "Allies", so including "to self" in the spell description is unnecessary.

      I've been making a lot of changes to the updated spells, which I hope is ok, but I'm trying to make them uniform in their spelling, formatting and capitalisation.
      After looking at the page again for the Spell:Pigsie, I think that the text is fine as it shows now ... "Restores 550 Health to all allies".

      If, by chance, there is a Spell that affects 'all allies, except self', then the wording would be changed. I haven't seen anything like that in the game, unless I missed it somewhere. ?? If so, we can talk about that again.

      On the "Ally" Pet Talents that you mentioned, they are currently listed as "cast on an ally". I am not sure if they can be 'cast on self'. Need some verfication for that question, and the Wiki would be changed accordingly.

      If any of the other Wiki Masters might have other thoughts on this, please let us know.

      @audacioussalix @FritzFunBringer @Monochromatic Bunny @Pyro @RedValkyre99 @Zane

      Hope that helps. And thank you for all of the updating that you are doing on the Wiki. So far, it all looks good!

      Reminder to all who might be Wiki Contributors: keep an eye on this Recent Changes List. Wiki Masters try to add 'editing comments' when changes / fixes are made to edits. Saves time (so a private message is not needed).
      Dare to catch your best dreams and live them with eyes wide open. Sweet dreams always.
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    5. #5
        Mayonnaisinator is online now Wiki Master
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      Re: Consistency on Spell Pages

      Thanks for the response (sorry for the trouble it caused!)
      I agree that "to all allies" seems like the best choice for these kinds of spells.
      The only "to all allies, but not self" spell that I can think of is Shadow Sentinel with its intercept, but that may be an exception and would have to be worded differently anyway because of its unique effect.

      I have some other points that I'd like to hear more thoughts on:
      1) The Level 118 "Split" spells.
      What would be the best way to word their effect? I currently used "Deals X <School> Damage divisible among all enemies", but I wasn't happy with that wording personally.
      After looking at how some of the spells used to be worded, I think "Deals X <School> Damage divided equally among targeted enemies" sounds a lot clearer in its effect.

      2) Global spells.
      I struggled to come up with a clear way to word Global spells, especially because they have varying effects (Damage, Critical, Armour Pierce, Pip Chance, Outgoing Healing).
      For the non-damage Globals, I think it's easier, as Combustion would be "+20% Fire Armor Piercing and +17% Fire Critical Hit Chance to all Spells", Power Play would be "+35% Power Pip Chance to all", and Sanctuary would be "+50% Outgoing Healing to all Spells".
      For a spell like Wyldfire, I was thinking of something like "+25% to all Fire Damage". This is clear in how it works with Fire spells, but it also covers how Wyldfire interacts with a spell like Hydra, because the current wording of "+25% to all outgoing Fire Damage Spells" could seem to imply that the Fire part of Hydra would not be boosted, because it is not a Fire Damage spell, whereas my suggestion should be clear that Hydra will be boosted.
      I think it's understandable enough, and I can't think of an alternative that would cover all in-game cases, such as Hydra, without getting too wordy and complicated.

      I'd like to hear some feedback on these before I try to change anything.

    6. #6
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      Re: Consistency on Spell Pages

      I'm confused. Is the Wiki transitioning to text only?

      Third Arc villain confirmed: Grandmother Raven's infinite sass

    7. #7
      AluraMist's Avatar
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      Re: Consistency on Spell Pages

      Quote Originally Posted by NoahWindmancer View Post
      I'm confused. Is the Wiki transitioning to text only?
      Yes. The Wiki Master Team has been working on the Wiki pages (ex: Creature and Spell pages).

      It was originally announced in May, 2018. See the Main Page of the Wiki, under "Changes Across the Wiki" for more details.

      There have been several other Announcements since then on that page too.

      AluraMist
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    8. #8
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      Re: Consistency on Spell Pages

      Quote Originally Posted by Mayonnaisinator View Post
      Thanks for the response (sorry for the trouble it caused!)
      I agree that "to all allies" seems like the best choice for these kinds of spells.
      The only "to all allies, but not self" spell that I can think of is Shadow Sentinel with its intercept, but that may be an exception and would have to be worded differently anyway because of its unique effect.

      I have some other points that I'd like to hear more thoughts on:
      1) The Level 118 "Split" spells.
      What would be the best way to word their effect? I currently used "Deals X <School> Damage divisible among all enemies", but I wasn't happy with that wording personally.
      After looking at how some of the spells used to be worded, I think "Deals X <School> Damage divided equally among targeted enemies" sounds a lot clearer in its effect.

      2) Global spells.
      I struggled to come up with a clear way to word Global spells, especially because they have varying effects (Damage, Critical, Armour Pierce, Pip Chance, Outgoing Healing).
      For the non-damage Globals, I think it's easier, as Combustion would be "+20% Fire Armor Piercing and +17% Fire Critical Hit Chance to all Spells", Power Play would be "+35% Power Pip Chance to all", and Sanctuary would be "+50% Outgoing Healing to all Spells".
      For a spell like Wyldfire, I was thinking of something like "+25% to all Fire Damage". This is clear in how it works with Fire spells, but it also covers how Wyldfire interacts with a spell like Hydra, because the current wording of "+25% to all outgoing Fire Damage Spells" could seem to imply that the Fire part of Hydra would not be boosted, because it is not a Fire Damage spell, whereas my suggestion should be clear that Hydra will be boosted.
      I think it's understandable enough, and I can't think of an alternative that would cover all in-game cases, such as Hydra, without getting too wordy and complicated.

      I'd like to hear some feedback on these before I try to change anything.
      Thanks for all of the great questions, and for taking the time to update the Spell pages after the recent Game Updates.

      I am going to mention the other Wiki Masters on this reply:

      @audacioussalix @FritzFunBringer @Monochromatic Bunny @Pyro @RedValkyre99 @Zane

      I am currently swamped with patrolling the Recent Changes List, which I review a few times every day.

      Please don't start doing any mass updates or transitioning to text, until we can discuss this. It is still a learning process for the Wiki Master Team also. We want to be consistent with whatever changes are made.

      Hopefully, some of the other Wiki Mastes can offer some feedback on the wording questions.

      AluraMist
      Dare to catch your best dreams and live them with eyes wide open. Sweet dreams always.
      The DreamCatcher.

    9. #9
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      Re: Consistency on Spell Pages

      I've written up a reply to this thread, but for some reason, I'm having Cloudflare issues on all of my broswers and devices when trying to post it. When I try to post my full reply, I'm getting "blocked". @Jester I'll try to send a PM with more details, but I'm getting the issue when posting, sending PMs, and editing the Wiki.

    10. #10
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      Re: Consistency on Spell Pages

      First of all, I am sorry for my edit conflicts on the wiki. I am still getting back into the swing of things after a long hiatus from wiki editing and there is a lot that I am still catching up on.

      Quote Originally Posted by Mayonnaisinator
      Steal Health spells such as Ghoul or Vampire don't mention that they deal Death Damage. While I understand that they don't include the Death symbol on the card itself, the spells do deal Death Damage as can be seen with resistances, and if there were ever to be a non-Death steal spell introduced, this could cause it to be unclear as to what type of damage is being dealt. Also, some pages describe the steal effect in different ways, such as the differences between Ghoul and Scion of Death (which strangely does feature the Death symbol in its in-game spell text...)
      The inconsistencies mentioned here, along with KingsIsle's love to change icons on a whim, are exactly why we wanted to transition to text-only descriptions, and why consistency is important. Even though Steal Cards don't mention that they do Death Damage, you are right, they do, and it's why I tend to word Steal Spells as such, "Deals 350 Death Damage and heals the caster for half the Damage dealt". As you've mentioned elsewhere though, Steal Spells do work slightly differently than typical Damage Spells, as they ignore Absorption Wards, so it would be worth it to say something along the lines of "Health Steal Damage". You also mentioned however that the School of Damage should not be omitted, as there are other Schools that have Steal Spells (Shadow Shepherd). However, "Death Health Steal Damage" & "Shadow Health Steal Damage" gets a bit clunky, in my opinion. Perhaps "Death Drain Damage" or "Shadow Drain Damage" would work better? For example, "Deals 350 Death Drain Damage and heals the caster for half the Damage dealt".

      Quote Originally Posted by Mayonnaisiniator
      Should spells that apply secondary effects, such as Power Nova or Handsome Fomori, link to the pages for their secondary effects (Weakness and Black Mantle respectively), as can be seen on Power Nova's page? While it could provide clarity for a spell like Power Nova, whose Weakness effect is equal in power to the standard spell Weakness, Handsome Fomori's accuracy debuff is weaker than the standard Black Mantle spell, so this could cause confusion as to the strength of the debuff.
      I disagree with having these links and will even go so far as to say a hard "no", exactly for the reasons in the quote that I put in bold. That would also introduce some inconsistencies with, for example, "Hmm... this Spell gives a +25% universal Blade, so I'll link it to Balanceblade, while this other one has a +35%, so I'll link that to Dragonblade." Also, "Well this Spell gives a -45% Accuracy debuff, so I'll link it to Black Mantle, but this one gives -75%, which there's no Spell for.... also Black Mantle." Simply stating that a +25% Damage Charm is provided by the Spell should be enough for viewers to understand the effects.

      I also do realize that my typical method of "... and +25% to the next outgoing Damage Spell" and etc. is likely is not the best or most clear way of putting things. Also elsewhere, you discussed your methodology of, for example, "... and gives -50% Healing Charm". I could get behind this if there were some small modifications made: "... and applies a -50% Healing Charm", with the target being specified if necessary. I am up for debate if whether or not "... and applies a -50% outgoing Healing Charm" would be necessary, since Charms in their very nature only affect the caster's outgoing Spells. So, for some examples that I think this would work all right with:

      Sirens: "Deals 765-905 Storm Damage to and applies -40% Accuracy Charm on all enemies"

      King Artorius (Fire) "Deals 835 Fire Damage to and Stuns target for 1 Round (and applies 1 Stun Shield on target), and applies a +10% Fire Armor Piercing Charm on self"

      Efreet: "Deals 780 Fire Damage and applies a -45% Damage Charm"

      Quote Originally Posted by Mayonnaisinator
      Should spells that affect all teammates (including yourself) say "... to self and all allies", or just "... to all allies"? For example, should Pigsie say "Restores 550 Health to self and all allies", or just "Restores 550 Health to all allies".
      Personally, this is a tough one, and the "to self and all allies" approach is one that I started taking because of "to all friends" being confusing. Do only people on my friends list get healed? What about myself, do I get healed if I cast something like Unicorn or Pigsie? Those might seem like silly questions, but it is all about semantics. If we could find some simple way to make the language fit so that it was obvious it included the caster's entire team, then I would be totally onboard. The only other really good example I can think of (with Pigsie as our example still) is, "Restores 550 Health for the caster's team". Or, "Restores 550 Health for the allied team"; I think this could work all right, since the caster is then included. I may be able to be persuaded to drop this one though since it is very nitpicky.

      Quote Originally Posted by Mayonnaisinator
      The Level 118 "Split" spells. What would be the best way to word their effect? I currently used "Deals X <School> Damage divisible among all enemies", but I wasn't happy with that wording personally. After looking at how some of the spells used to be worded, I think "Deals X <School> Damage divided equally among targeted enemies" sounds a lot clearer in its effect.
      It looks like this is how it is set up for most of the Mirage Spells at the moment, and it is perfect. I would not change a thing

      Quote Originally Posted by Mayonnaisinator
      Global spells. I struggled to come up with a clear way to word Global spells, especially because they have varying effects (Damage, Critical, Armour Pierce, Pip Chance, Outgoing Healing). For the non-damage Globals, I think it's easier, as Combustion would be "+20% Fire Armor Piercing and +17% Fire Critical Hit Chance to all Spells", Power Play would be "+35% Power Pip Chance to all", and Sanctuary would be "+50% Outgoing Healing to all Spells". For a spell like Wyldfire, I was thinking of something like "+25% to all Fire Damage". This is clear in how it works with Fire spells, but it also covers how Wyldfire interacts with a spell like Hydra, because the current wording of "+25% to all outgoing Fire Damage Spells" could seem to imply that the Fire part of Hydra would not be boosted, because it is not a Fire Damage spell, whereas my suggestion should be clear that Hydra will be boosted. I think it's understandable enough, and I can't think of an alternative that would cover all in-game cases, such as Hydra, without getting too wordy and complicated.
      This is one I had to think about a bit. Global Spells (and Auras, for that matter) work differently than Charms and Wards, which are specifically and respectively related to the caster's outgoing and incoming effects. There are some Auras that only affect outgoing stats, some that only affect incoming, and some that affect some outgoing and some incoming all at once. Currently, Global Spells that affect the amount of Damage that is dealt or Health that is restored only affect outgoing stats, but I do not think that there is anything preventing KingsIsle from creating Global Spells that affect everyone's incoming stats in the future. So, I think that the differentiation needs to be made here.

      I love how you brought up the example of Wyldfire interacting with Hydra, and insist on changing the wording to "+25% to all Fire Damage" instead of "+25 to all Fire Damage Spells" since Hydra is of course not a Fire Spell. That is a great point. However, for the reasoning mentioned above, I would have to insist on it being, "+25% to all outgoing Fire Damage".

      Regarding the Khrysalis Globals that provide Critical chance, I would also insist on removing the mention of a "Critical hit" and to leave it simply as "Critical", as all Schools have some sort of Healing Spell (Fire has Link & Power Link, Ice had Taco Toss and now Celestial Intervention, Storm has Healing Current, Myth has Grendel's Amends, Life's got... all of its stuff, Death has Sacrifice, and Balance has Helping/Availing Hands). So, to make Combustion an example, "+20% Armor Piercing to all outgoing Fire Damage and +17% Critical Chance to all Fire Spells" would be how I would format it.

      __________________________________________________ ______________________________

      I did my best to cover as much of this thread as I could, so let me know if there is anything else that I need to expand upon or clarify. Thanks for your interest in making our Wiki as consistent and comprehensible as possible

      Quote Originally Posted by NoahWindmancer View Post
      I'm confused. Is the Wiki transitioning to text only?
      To clarify, we will still have plenty of images on the Wiki, we are simply transitioning to text-only Spell descriptions because of KingsIsle's ever-expanding and ever-confusing nomenclature when it comes to writing Spell card descriptions.
      Last edited by Pyro; 8-27-20 at 11:34:29 AM. Reason: Thanks, Jester!

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