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    Results 1 to 10 of 13
    1. #1
      Danielle0228's Avatar
        Danielle0228 is offline Initiate Wizard

      • Danielle0228's Wizard Stats
        •  Wizard's Name:
        •  Danielle EmeraldDreamer, Aedan Rain, Keira Breeze, Ellie Mist
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        •  130
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        •  Wizard City
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        •  Ice
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      Ranked pvp needs to be more level based

      I'm not entirely sure this post goes here, but the general pvp discussion tab looks like a mess right now with the spam posts so I decided to post here. This has been in my mind for too long. Please excuse my English mistakes as it's not my first language.

      I'm someone who has played the game since 2008 and has done pvp on all of her wizards at some point at different levels and ages. I've done max (Transcendent, Archmage, Promethean era), Grandmaster, Magus, Adept, and Journeyman. I've done team ranked pvps when it was a thing, as well as 1v1. Now I do Journeyman and Adept only, so my main focus will be on that, but some concepts may apply to all.

      First, let's talk about how (I think) the pvp matchmaking system has been. When you queue, the system tries to find you an opponent who has a similar rank rating and level as you. When it can't find someone like that, it tries to balance out the matches with level, such as having a lower level high ranking person fight a higher level but lower ranked person, and the latter is where the problem lies.

      I've been watching many matches of my friends recently, and lower level pvp (adept/journeyman) is completely broken, more than it has ever been. There has always been two main sides of argument, the "experienced pvpers" and the "newcomers". The pvpers think the system is rigged because we keep fighting people who are indeed lower rank but much higher level, and sometimes even have pvp gear from the previous ages. At the same time, the new players of pvp think that it's unfair that they have to fight warlords and commanders, even if they are of lower level.

      Both make sense, but I truthfully think that it's much easier for newcomers to participate in pvp in this age than the previous ones. The game has included many additions such as the Aquila dungeons that drop incredible gear for starting out at magus. If you are of lower level you can also start out with Duelist gear, or pack gear if you wish to spend some crowns. Not to mention the holy hatchmaking kiosk that made getting great pets not an impossible task anymore. It shouldn't be a problem to fight lower level warlords. You have double their health, almost double their damage, twice the chances of getting power pips, double the size of their TC deck if you're magus and above, etc. Not hard at all if you just took the time to get ready before jumping into a ranked match.

      On the other hand, it has become exceedingly difficult for high ranked people to win a match nowadays. I've seen my friend (adept 1.1k rank) paired against a level 50 3rd age warlord who is a sergeant now, fight a level 35 life commander, fight a level 40 balance commander, and fight a level 30s storm with full zeus gear, ares wand for 10% dmg, quint dmg max stats pet (making him have 90% dmg) who was just starting to pvp. How does the game expect him to win any of these? From second?! He got all of these matches basically IN A ROW, so it's not like you get these once in a while.

      This leads to my suggestion that the matchmaking system needs an update, and a "game-changing" one. It used to be more or less acceptable for lower level warlords to fight high level lower ranks because there IS a difference between stats and skill. Not anymore. Nowadays everyone can read a guide or watch videos of matches and have a strategy. There isn't that much difference of skill, experience, or even stats anymore. Then how would someone who is lower level ever win against someone who is basically double their level now? Especially when you go second.

      The matchmaking system needs to become more LEVEL based instead of rank balancing based. I think making it have level tiers similar to tournaments would make sense, even if it's just for lower level pvp where levels make a lot of difference. For example, journeyman/adept can be a tier, magus/master another, grandmaster, etc. As a journeyman/adept you have 12 TC spaces, but as a magus you get 20. Everyone has the same resist with commander gear, but magus can get damages up to 70s with the ares wand, while journeyman can get 50 and adept around 50s. The duelist athame and ring tiers also make a big difference. Health wise, journeyman/adepts are always around 1,000-1,400, while magus gets 1,800 and above. You get what I mean. I would 100% rather fight an adept as a journeyman than as an adept fighting a magus. It's just not fair. If you go miraculously go first you have a shot, but if you go second it's virtually impossible unless the opponent is terrible.

      I even think maybe the system can be like tournaments where you fight others of the same level tier regardless of rank. That would mean that if you keep winning and get a really high rating, you would be one of the best at your level because you would have to win against almost everyone you fight. Rating would actually mean something, and it would be like a battle royale ranking system. Ranks would have no limits and it would motivate pvpers to keep doing pvp after they reach warlord. We should also get new titles above warlord. Of course, if this becomes true, there would need to be new rules about accessibility of commander gear or else it would be unfair to the new players.
      Last edited by Danielle0228; 8-23-18 at 4:44:04 AM.

    2. #2
      Berrs's Avatar
        Berrs is offline Novice Wizard

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        •  Khrysalis
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        •  Life
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      Re: Ranked pvp needs to be more level based

      This seems like a good idea, I really enjoy the thought of having Ranked PvP be similar to tournaments, and to be the best you'd have to constantly defeat others your level, but there is a problem;

      Boosting
      Players can create characters and level them to a level where not many other players PvP at, for example level 90. Due to shadow spells being 10 levels away most players of this level simply refuse to PvP at level 90 and opt to go to 100 instead. Since almost no one PvPs at level 90, if a booster creates 2 level 90 characters, they'd get matched with each other almost every time they queue up, and he'd constantly be getting more and more rating off his own character. The current system of PvP matchmaking wouldn't allow this because as one character gets higher in rank, they'd start facing lower-ranked higher level wizards, with this new system you're suggesting he'd only be facing his own level 90 regardless of rank.

      As for your friend facing a 3rd age grandmaster warlord, there is I believe a simple solution to that.
      Players wearing warlord gear will be calculated in the queue system as warlords (at minimum) regardless of their rank.
      Level 50 Life Commander - Level 65 Balance Warlord - Level 120 Death - Level 120 Ice - Level 120 Storm - Level 80 Fire
      Player since 2010

    3. #3
      StorySmith's Avatar
        StorySmith is offline Prodigious

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        •  Avalon
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      Re: Ranked pvp needs to be more level based

      The bigger issue is that there isn't enough volume (players in Ranked PvP) for the matchmaking system to be functionally fair.

    4. #4
      ChoGath's Avatar
        ChoGath is offline Grandmaster Wizard
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      Re: Ranked pvp needs to be more level based

      Quote Originally Posted by Danielle0228 View Post
      ...
      I truthfully think that it's much easier for newcomers to participate in pvp in this age than the previous ones. The game has included many additions such as the Aquila dungeons that drop incredible gear for starting out at magus. If you are of lower level you can also start out with Duelist gear, or pack gear if you wish to spend some crowns. Not to mention the holy hatchmaking kiosk that made getting great pets not an impossible task anymore. It shouldn't be a problem to fight lower level warlords. You have double their health, almost double their damage, twice the chances of getting power pips, double the size of their TC deck if you're magus and above, etc. Not hard at all if you just took the time to get ready before jumping into a ranked match. ...
      Being such an old and experienced player, its hard to remember back to the days with your 1st wizard in your 1st few months of game play. I used to share your opinion about newcomers, but I changed my mind a while ago. Consider when newcomers are introduced to PvP in Unicorn Way. The PvP intro missions are given by Diego the Duelmaster in the L6-L10-L20-L50 range. There's little in the way of training to link gardening, crafting, and pet mixing into the overall effort to generate a properly setup PvP wizard. There's simply too little time in game at L20 of your 1st wizard to fully understand what all that is going on. The newbie L20-L50 wizard has too little PvP experience to properly setup a deck and coordinate all these different game systems. Even if they know where to find a guide, they are blindly copying it, rather than understanding it. Their card selection decisions will be very poor in the arena.

      Here's a test you can run to get the newbie experience - Dump all your PvP gear and put on your PvE farming gear. Use your farming deck setup. Use a 1st generation pet. Try a series of 5-10 games and see how you do. I seriously doubt you will win many games. This is the PvP world introduction that newbie PvP wizards face.

      Quote Originally Posted by Danielle0228 View Post
      ...On the other hand, it has become exceedingly difficult for high ranked people to win a match nowadays. I've seen my friend (adept 1.1k rank) paired against a level 50 3rd age warlord who is a sergeant now, fight a level 35 life commander, fight a level 40 balance commander, and fight a level 30s storm with full zeus gear, ares wand for 10% dmg, quint dmg max stats pet (making him have 90% dmg) who was just starting to pvp. How does the game expect him to win any of these? From second?! He got all of these matches basically IN A ROW, so it's not like you get these once in a while.
      I was very highly ranked at one time, but I started to notice how I was obtaining the rank.

      Quote Originally Posted by ChoGath View Post
      ...I agree with Nick on the root of the current problem
      Also worth noting that a lot of this trouble is fallout from more experienced players clinging to lower level PvP for a more stable meta and usually for the super inflated rank possibilities, powered by Glendemming and Tournament gear.And there’s still complaints from that crowd regularly, it’s nuts. “I have 2000 rank and I keep getting matched with people I can’t beat!”. Meanwhile the higher leveled “newbie” players are being fleeced for their rank, and listening to tirades when they get a lucky win against a much better equipped opponent.
      Over all, I think you need to have two different leagues - one for newbies (captains or less) and one for veterans (commanders and higher).
      Last edited by ChoGath; 8-23-18 at 8:53:05 PM.

    5. #5
      Danielle0228's Avatar
        Danielle0228 is offline Initiate Wizard

      • Danielle0228's Wizard Stats
        •  Wizard's Name:
        •  Danielle EmeraldDreamer, Aedan Rain, Keira Breeze, Ellie Mist
        •  Wizard's Level:
        •  130
        •  World:
        •  Wizard City
        •  Wizard's School:
        •  Ice
      Status: Thinking
       
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      Re: Ranked pvp needs to be more level based

      Quote Originally Posted by Berrs View Post
      Boosting
      Players can create characters and level them to a level where not many other players PvP at, for example level 90. Due to shadow spells being 10 levels away most players of this level simply refuse to PvP at level 90 and opt to go to 100 instead. Since almost no one PvPs at level 90, if a booster creates 2 level 90 characters, they'd get matched with each other almost every time they queue up, and he'd constantly be getting more and more rating off his own character. The current system of PvP matchmaking wouldn't allow this because as one character gets higher in rank, they'd start facing lower-ranked higher level wizards, with this new system you're suggesting he'd only be facing his own level 90 regardless of rank.

      As for your friend facing a 3rd age grandmaster warlord, there is I believe a simple solution to that.
      Players wearing warlord gear will be calculated in the queue system as warlords (at minimum) regardless of their rank.
      I hadn't thought about boosting... Thanks for reminding me. However the level tiers could be for Legendary and below. I realize many Grandmasters and Legendaries, as well as those above these levels regularly fight people of 20-30 level difference. The thing is, they still have a chance at winning as long as they aren't fighting a zero hero or a lucky storm. Their health, setup, gear, and decks prevent them from getting one-shot most of the times and they can usually tank/heal back very well (to the point it's almost annoying). From my match experiences, as an adept fire, I have absolutely no defense to spirit schools and Chimera except 4+1TC tower shields, which can very easily be broken by minions. I can say at least 85% of my losses was being second to spirit school and balance magus.

      I sincerely don't understand the reason behind boosting except wanting to look like you're good or something. Well, currently we aren't able to match up with the same person in a row so that helps. Maybe the interval can be longer. If Kingisisle catches them, there can be a penalty as well. Also, since I meant you can get anyone within the same level tier, as long as there is someone else, it would be hard to always get yourself. EDIT: Besides, getting to level 90 for the sole reason of boosting your main wizard seems pretty extreme.

      I do think maybe it should be a requirement to reach commander or warlord before being able to equip commander or glendemming's gear from previous ages.
      Last edited by Danielle0228; 8-24-18 at 6:18:54 AM.

    6. #6
      Danielle0228's Avatar
        Danielle0228 is offline Initiate Wizard

      • Danielle0228's Wizard Stats
        •  Wizard's Name:
        •  Danielle EmeraldDreamer, Aedan Rain, Keira Breeze, Ellie Mist
        •  Wizard's Level:
        •  130
        •  World:
        •  Wizard City
        •  Wizard's School:
        •  Ice
      Status: Thinking
       
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      Re: Ranked pvp needs to be more level based

      Quote Originally Posted by ChoGath View Post
      Being such an old and experienced player, its hard to remember back to the days with your 1st wizard in your 1st few months of game play. I used to share your opinion about newcomers, but I changed my mind a while ago. Consider when newcomers are introduced to PvP in Unicorn Way. The PvP intro missions are given by Diego the Duelmaster in the L6-L10-L20-L50 range. There's little in the way of training to link gardening, crafting, and pet mixing into the overall effort to generate a properly setup PvP wizard. There's simply too little time in game at L20 of your 1st wizard to fully understand what all that is going on. The newbie L20-L50 wizard has too little PvP experience to properly setup a deck and coordinate all these different game systems. Even if they know where to find a guide, they are blindly copying it, rather than understanding it. Their card selection decisions will be very poor in the arena.

      Here's a test you can run to get the newbie experience - Dump all your PvP gear and put on your PvE farming gear. Use your farming deck setup. Use a 1st generation pet. Try a series of 5-10 games and see how you do. I seriously doubt you will win many games. This is the PvP world introduction that newbie PvP wizards face.
      Over all, I think you need to have two different leagues - one for newbies (captains or less) and one for veterans (commanders and higher).
      Personally, I don't think I would try to do a particular level of pvp like level 20s when I'm new to the game. When I started, I only decided to start doing pvp for the commander robe that was still relatively rare at the time when I reached level 70. Then, I began doing adept life pvp on my second wizard only after I did thorough research online and watched dozens of matches. I was only 13 at the time. I started with a Starfish pet with proof spritely and ice giver, but I did manage to get myself a proof, defy, spritely and unicorn pet to use after a couple matches. I remembered seeing people with those amazing SPUDs and thought I must get one, and that's what I did. I never thought it would be a good idea to randomly go into a ranked match without preparation and practice. At that time, there weren't even Diego pvp quests nor as many youtubers. I didn't do gardening, nor much of pet mixing except trying desperately to hatch with someone that has my ideal pet at the time. There is always much to learn after you actually get into it, but I managed to figure out my strategy after maybe 30 matches. New players these days have much more access to these kind of information and experiences than I ever did before. And I gotta say the hatchmaking kiosk really changed everything. Remember how hard it was to find someone kind enough to hatch with you when you had a pet with sharp shot and spritely? That doesn't happen anymore.

      During Second Age pvp, I got my alt account 1 month membership just for fun, and I did ranked on my lvl 28 balance using bazaar gear without any lore spells, and before Aquila came out. My pet was ancient with 9% proof, health gift, and fairy since I had no snacks to make a better one on that account. My win-loss ratio was worse than my wizards on the main account due to bad starting stats, but I reached 1098 rank before I stopped and my membership ended. Things would be different these days, anyone can get a better pet than that, and use Zeus/duelist gear with free tournaments. People need to realize that they need to at least know a little bit about pvp and make some effort for a decent pet before jumping straight in. If somebody wants to go in expecting they will win matches with a questing deck, well...... I don't know man, you clearly didn't do your research.

      There could be different leagues, then we wouldn't get those super high level privates anymore either because we'd be closer in rank. There also needs to be a limit on how many levels higher or lower your opponents can be though. I don't think anyone's ready to fight a Master commander as an adept with a chance of going second, no matter how high your rank may be.
      Last edited by Danielle0228; 8-24-18 at 11:51:29 PM.

    7. #7
      KieranCaster's Avatar
        KieranCaster is offline Magus Wizard

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        •  Empyrea
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        •  Fire
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        •  Constable Millie - The Critical Pet!
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        •  Ornery Kookaburra
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      Re: Ranked pvp needs to be more level based

      Oh, I have been saying this for years.

      I would rather face a Grandmaster Warlord with 2,500 rank with my 1,000 Rank Grandmaster, than a Level 75 Private.

    8. #8
      ChoGath's Avatar
        ChoGath is offline Grandmaster Wizard
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      Re: Ranked pvp needs to be more level based

      Quote Originally Posted by Danielle0228 View Post
      ... There could be different leagues, then we wouldn't get those super high level privates anymore either because we'd be closer in rank. There also needs to be a limit on how many levels higher or lower your opponents can be though. I don't think anyone's ready to fight a Master commander as an adept with a chance of going second, no matter how high your rank may be.
      I actually think we should do both - (1) Have two leagues so that newbie duelists can learn together while the experienced warlords can hammer on each other; (2) within each league, use level groupings like they currently do in tournaments.

      One last think I believe KI should do is to return to a true ELO style ranking system:

      Quote Originally Posted by DerHund View Post
      ...

      ...

      An interesting mathematical property of an ELO rating system is that it "works" regardless of the opponents paired. ELO is effectively making a bet on the current rankings of the opponents. If the current ranks are correct, then there is no need to change them. Remember, if your rank is significantly higher than your opponent, then you are expected to beat them most of the time.
      One way to view this is from a loss / risk point-of-view. If you are paired against someone who has a massively higher rank than you, it's a near certainty that they will beat you. You (the very low rank person) should not have your rank harshly penalized if you actually lose. On the flip side, if you manage to steal a win, you should get a huge rank reward for your amazing win. A true ELO system treats newbie players fairly, even if they get paired with an uber-overlord.

    9. #9
      Danielle0228's Avatar
        Danielle0228 is offline Initiate Wizard

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        •  Wizard's Name:
        •  Danielle EmeraldDreamer, Aedan Rain, Keira Breeze, Ellie Mist
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        •  130
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        •  Wizard City
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        •  Ice
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      Re: Ranked pvp needs to be more level based

      Quote Originally Posted by ChoGath View Post
      I actually think we should do both - (1) Have two leagues so that newbie duelists can learn together while the experienced warlords can hammer on each other; (2) within each league, use level groupings like they currently do in tournaments.
      One last think I believe KI should do is to return to a true ELO style ranking system:

      One way to view this is from a loss / risk point-of-view. If you are paired against someone who has a massively higher rank than you, it's a near certainty that they will beat you. You (the very low rank person) should not have your rank harshly penalized if you actually lose. On the flip side, if you manage to steal a win, you should get a huge rank reward for your amazing win. A true ELO system treats newbie players fairly, even if they get paired with an uber-overlord.
      Doing both would be good. The ELO system was how it was back during first age, but it would only work now if we truly limit the possibility of fighting really high level lower ranks and create level tiers. Like I've mentioned before, there's no way we're going to win against a good Master or Grandmaster knight/captain/commander as an Adept warlord if we go second (probably can't even win against magus lol), so I don't think the higher ranked low level should be punished in this situation.

      Or if we don't have 2 leagues (as long as we have level groupings), this can still work since newcomers won't be losing a lot of rank to experienced players, and they would get a massive reward when they learn and win. The system within the level group can prioritize matching similar rank as well, so that it's a bit fairer. But, if it fails to find someone, it would pair the person with someone of different rank but around same level, instead of trying to balance rank difference by giving you someone of a different level like before.

      It was fun during first age when people had to actually be good to rank up with the ELO system. Now you can grind your way up with a bit of luck if you're decent, since you still get 16 when you fight a newbie. If you're unlucky, with the match ups these days, you can say hello to losing streaks.
      Last edited by Danielle0228; 8-24-18 at 11:42:40 PM.

    10. #10
      M.W.S's Avatar
        M.W.S is offline Adept Wizard

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        •  Malorn WillowSmith
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        •  110
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        •  Polaris
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        •  Balance
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      Re: Ranked pvp needs to be more level based

      I agree, nice observations I've been playing the game since 2009. I'm a max Sorcerer and First Age PvP Warlord, a lot of people lack strategy in the arena. All the crowns KI gives out makes it difficult for newbies to properly fight, even I have to prepare my tc deck every match for formidable opponents to balance out a tough duel. I've noticed a lot of these lower levels participating in ranked etc; I always pvp at my level anyway makes more sense. I wonder what KI will implement next - you should check out a bit of my pvp content I post here on Central



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