• Aggressive
  • Alienated
  • Amazed
  • Amazed2
  • Amused2
  • Angelic
  • Angry2
  • Apelike
  • Artistic
  • Balanced
  • Bashful
  • Blah
  • Bookworm
  • Bored
  • Breezy
  • Brooding
  • Busy
  • Chatty
  • Cheeky
  • Cheerful
  • Cloud 9
  • Cold
  • Confused
  • Cool2
  • Creative
  • Curious
  • Cynical
  • Daring
  • Devilish
  • Disagree
  • Doh
  • Doubtful
  • Drama Queen
  • Dreaming
  • Elated
  • Energetic
  • Fiendish
  • Fine
  • Gloomy
  • Goofy
  • Grumpy2
  • Happy2
  • Hot
  • In Pain
  • Innocent2
  • Insomnious
  • Inspired
  • Lonely
  • Lucky
  • Lurking
  • Mellow
  • Mischievious
  • Monday Blues
  • Musical
  • Nerdy
  • No Mood
  • Not Amused
  • Notworthy
  • Paranoid
  • Pensive
  • Predatory
  • Procrastinating
  • Psychedelic
  • Relaxed
  • Sad2
  • Scared
  • Scurvy
  • Shocked
  • Sick
  • Sleeping
  • Sleepy
  • Sluggish
  • Sneaky2
  • Snobbish
  • Spooky
  • Sporty
  • Starving
  • Stressed
  • Sunshine
  • Sweet Tooth
  • Thinking
  • Torn
  • Twisted
  • Vegged Out
  • Volatile
  • Woot
  • Worried
  • Yee Haw
  • Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Arrg!
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh!
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • At Work
  • Eating
  • Editing
  • Lagging
  • Netflix
  • No Status
  • PC Gaming
  • PS Gaming
  • Raging
  • Sleeping2
  • Steam Gaming
  • Trolling
  • XBox Gaming
  • Youtuber
  • Zombies
  • Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
    Results 1 to 10 of 25
    1. #1
      BLSK's Avatar
        BLSK is offline Apprentice Wizard

      • BLSK's Wizard Stats
        •  Wizard's Name:
        •  Valdus Sandmask(Balance)Justin Moonmask(Ice)Justin(Death)Justin(Life)Justin(Fire)Justin(Myth)
        •  Wizard's Level:
        •  90
        •  World:
        •  Azteca
        •  Wizard's School:
        •  Balance
        •  Pet's Name:
        •  Sir Fluffy(needs tuneups though :P)
        •  Pet's Type:
        •  Therizinosaurus
      ----
       
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2010
      Posts
      61
      PvP Tournaments Won
      0
      Thanks (Given)
      2
      Thanks (Received)
      15
      Gold
      57.82

      Arrow New Pet Talent Calculations

      Adding after the Below Underlined stuff.

      I am going to Contact KI and find out first off why nothing calculates out right no matter how you try to make it sound right. I will be Posting about it on the Message Boards since the Below has happened. Ill also add a Link below this Text to the message boards when it does show up granted I don't think KI will answer XD They never do unless its something really really Stupid...and i mean a Stupid question like "Where do i find Ambrose?" XD



      disregard the Proofs for they are wrong for sure. So far they is no real Calculation that fits the buck. At 8% resist on the Dot it comes out to give 7.37% not 8% and even at 1000 points it still is only 7.8% which says something is wrong...not with my math but the set up the Talent is like...It needs to be Tested out Further... It might be nice if It can be figured out

      The Givers also are not coming out right...Is it My Figures...No...Its the fact something is wrong with the Actual Talent Calculation that KI has given. At 900 a 6% giver gives 5.1% it looks....

      The other 2 will be nearly Impossible to prove wrong or right but the Math Is correct...Question is Is KI's Math anywhere near the same.



      PART 1: THE FINDING

      First Post is the Opening introducing the Gang where as the Calculations will be shown in the next if I run out of Picture room.

      Hello. A few days ago I had noticed something that I had never really thought about. Today I finally bring it to you the W101 Fans.About 3 years ago I got my Defender pig shown here...

      Name:  Spell-Proof 10 1.jpg
Views: 111
Size:  162.4 KB

      As can be seen here It has 10% Resist all. It may come to no shock that it has been a great Ally for ages. It had also become Epic on the first day of Advanced Pets.

      What may come to a shock though are its Stats. What makes a Pet have a stat like 10% Resist all has been Calculated to be

      (2xStr+2xAgil+Power)/125

      So plugging in it comes to

      10x125 of course right....10% Resist Times the 125 is 1250.

      So checking how close my may may of gotten to 11% being 1375 I had wondered. The Distance between his current Number and 1375 was

      170!
      wait...170? How was that even logical. So I checked again and sure enough it was 1205 which was even 45 points from 10%....strange....

      WHY?
      I wasn't sure. It didn't make sence that my pet could be like that so i dug out my Pure Sea Dragon

      Name:  Picture 2013-01-08 04-45-20.jpg
Views: 87
Size:  182.0 KB

      I had decided i would try out his Spell-Proof. It came out to Equal 20 shy of 1250. It was suddenly a mystery as to why my pets were Defying the Wiki.

      I looked further I wondered...were their more...I only had so many pets

      THEN I REMEMBERED!
      I had a new pet sea dragon that had gotten both Spell-Proof and Spell-Defying just days earlier. And sure enough it wasn't maxed out. I just knew some good would come from this pet.

      Name:  Spell-Proof 10 2.jpg
Views: 83
Size:  181.9 KB


      and their might of been...I edged it up but not thinking I failed to Snap a ScreenShot before it went up. This was the point I got one at which was right about which was 1193... MY LOWEST YET! Not long before though I had taken a snapshot though of this.


      Name:  Spell Defy 5.jpg
Views: 76
Size:  212.2 KB

      This was about where it gained 5% Spell-Defying...though it doesn't show it had 9% Resist all from Spell-Proof. I hadn't thought to take a snapshot of it by mistake.

      To make that Long Story short.

      I know I am not the only one that has looked around and saw pets with 9% and 5% resist all which in the wiki.

      (2xStr+2xAgil+Power)/250 or 125 depending which it was is 1 to 2 percent they go up together.

      I am unable at this time though to show that in its whole for they do not got up at the same time.




      PART 2: Was that all?

      I Looked at other pets. I looked at the Wiki. I had a few pets on me around 10. I had been working on Hatching my Sea Dragon with my Terizinisaurus for a few days. I had this guy.

      Name:  Pip O'Plenty 1 2.jpg
Views: 73
Size:  185.3 KB

      I didn't think much about stats till i saw my Defender Pig and 2 Sea Dragons with incorrect stats. This one was Puzzling too.

      1% Pip Chance With 322 Points!
      Now that is a little above the 250 points that the Wiki said it would go up. So i trained it.

      Name:  Pip O'Plenty 2.jpg
Views: 77
Size:  184.8 KB

      It has 377 towards pip chance and finally got 2%...I was baffled but at the time I needed to go further.
      Sea Dragon here again but I didn't look at it before hand while I was doing it but yes it isn't terribly hugely far off from 5...I haven't finished the Teri, but more than enough info from it.

      Name:  Pip O'Plenty 5.jpg
Views: 63
Size:  169.3 KB

      I had others I was working on with Pip O'Plenty but writing this I noticed first off i could only put 20 photos in One post and also... was it needed?

      In the 2nd Post I will add in the Calculations.



      PART 3: Onward With a Question
      AND DOOMS DAY!




      I had gone into the 'Contact the Wiki Masters' Section to ask a question...It started off bad....

      I think everyone has those moments where you think your asking for a simple answer but the question comes out wrong.

      I had wanted to know how much proof I would need to Change a Very Large Section of the wiki. I had thought maybe only Wiki Masters would be able to answer maybe since it was suppose to be for contacting the Wiki Masters....

      While the post got out of hand I did continue working. A few posts popped up so i answered while getting even more pets together that had Odd Stats and a few I never thought to train.

      Name:  Balance-It 1.jpg
Views: 71
Size:  176.6 KB
      Name:  Fire-Proof 6 somewhere.jpg
Views: 76
Size:  171.2 KB
      Name:  Life-Giver 5 1.jpg
Views: 69
Size:  179.8 KB
      Name:  Myth Shot 3 mostly done.jpg
Views: 71
Size:  183.3 KB
      Name:  Death-Giver 5 somewhere.jpg
Views: 70
Size:  181.4 KB

      I found a Proof and being I looked at the Proofs such as Spell, Ice, so on they all had 125 I felt I could at least show something out of it. Besides that I found Shots and Givers. I have other pets that may manifest things too but I got some duds. Some gained cheats others gained cards. I trained them all about the same so it was kinda shocking yet maybe there was a reason. (I am not just guessing with the Similiar spells for it fit Spell-Proof came out with the 3rd picture supported it as well. )

      There could be many reasons why some didn't manifest like I had hoped to bring more things to the barbaque but all of the sudden....



      WIKI AND CENTRAL DOWN!


      I quickly figured out why and figured the post I was going to post about 2 days ago now wasn't going to be able to be done, so I took the time to train them and more but everything was coming up the same. I continued with an assortment of pets...some I took pictures of...Others I calculated but didn't picture.

      PART 4 Section 1: The Calcuations
      Sure enough around 2 days pasted and I perfected 4 Major Calculations. Pip O'Plenty, Shots, Proofs, and Givers(mind you i dont have a million different shots for either way People will have to Prove I am right anyways).

      Now for the Rest of the Photos I am going to Fit in this Post...
      Name:  Balance-It 2.jpg
Views: 72
Size:  178.1 KB
      Name:  Balance-It 3.jpg
Views: 68
Size:  190.3 KB
      Name:  Balance-It almost 4.jpg
Views: 64
Size:  179.0 KB
      Name:  Balance-It 4.jpg
Views: 65
Size:  180.7 KB

      Balance-It:

      It is in the Wiki defined as

      (2xIntel+2xAgil+Power)/200

      If anyone does the Calculations between The Judges you will see it does come out very neat since the last 2 pictures are only 1 point appart means it changed at that point. For this Talent in particular I came up with the Corrected Equation of...

      (2xIntel+2xAgil+Power-100)/200

      This equation also works for Myth Shot, Ice Shot, and Sharp-Shot. I would Evaulate Accuracy Talents at least ones that only go to a normal average number of 6%. It of course Varies depending on Intel, Agil, and Power.

      Here are the Jade Oni Picture I had also taken when it got up.

      Name:  Myth Shot 4.jpg
Views: 66
Size:  188.3 KB

      It is only a few Points Beyond the Prior Picture so it shows some extra info mostly. Its at 701 which is 1 point beyond the boost point. It had full energy so doing the 700 was impossible.

      Before I leave this Stat alone I am sure if anyone has been 'Calc'ing' along. You see something odd... This stat says +4% Pip chance and i am saying the Answer to the Equation is +3%. That is where I got confused myself. 1 Starts at 5 points. 1 agil, 1 intel, and 1 power. It goes al the way up to 299. When it hits 300 it is finally on a new section where the 'Known Formula' Finally takes over. Now why do i say 5 instead of 100. That is cause if my Judge was Analized it has 95 so its less than 100. Now if there is a % below the percent say .3% pips if for some reason you had 30 points and got it...I would be unable to answer that. This however Concludes the First Examination of the Accuracy.

      I encourage anyone that doubts this of course to try it out themselves... for now though that is Section 1 of Calcuations.


      - - - Updated - - -

      Reserved working on now
      Last edited by BLSK; 1-9-13 at 3:21 PM.
      THE FIRST OF 'THE FORCE OF SEVEN'

    2. #2
      BLSK's Avatar
        BLSK is offline Apprentice Wizard

      • BLSK's Wizard Stats
        •  Wizard's Name:
        •  Valdus Sandmask(Balance)Justin Moonmask(Ice)Justin(Death)Justin(Life)Justin(Fire)Justin(Myth)
        •  Wizard's Level:
        •  90
        •  World:
        •  Azteca
        •  Wizard's School:
        •  Balance
        •  Pet's Name:
        •  Sir Fluffy(needs tuneups though :P)
        •  Pet's Type:
        •  Therizinosaurus
      ----
       
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2010
      Posts
      61
      PvP Tournaments Won
      0
      Thanks (Given)
      2
      Thanks (Received)
      15
      Gold
      57.82

      Re: New Pet Talent Calculations

      PART 4 Section 2: Givers

      Damage Boosts:

      Now I have only found One type of Damage boosts so far excluding Ice Boon I will be working Ice Boon though...I meant to but too many things.
      Name:  Death-Giver 5 somewhere.jpg
Views: 52
Size:  181.4 KB
      Name:  Death-Giver Almost 6.jpg
Views: 53
Size:  188.3 KB
      Name:  Picture 2013-01-08 03-43-06.jpg
Views: 52
Size:  185.1 KB
      Name:  Life-Giver 3.jpg
Views: 51
Size:  178.3 KB
      Name:  Life-Giver 5 1.jpg
Views: 52
Size:  179.8 KB
      Name:  Life-Giver almost 6.jpg
Views: 154
Size:  175.9 KB
      Name:  Life-giver 6.jpg
Views: 50
Size:  173.7 KB

      Now to Stream Line it some...The points can be figured out but...

      (2xStr+2xWill+Power)/200

      The New Equation is thus

      (2xStr+2xWill+Power-100)/200

      Pets with 6% Attack would be 5% boosted after reaching 300
      I would doubt at least int he way of the Givers they will change.



      PART 4 Section 3: Pip O'Plenty

      Name:  Pip O'Plenty 3 almost done.jpg
Views: 48
Size:  193.7 KB
      Name:  Pip O'Plenty 4.jpg
Views: 47
Size:  181.7 KB

      Since i have used others in other sections I am only showing these 2. As I have said others can try them out and come to their own conclusions as to if this is right.

      (2xStr+2xIntel+Power)/250

      New equation

      (2xStr+2xIntel+Power-125)/250

      Pet with 6% pip chance would be 5% boosted after reaching 375

      Oo oo oo...I see a Pattern Forming....



      PART 4 Section 4: Proofs

      Now as I said I only have 1 Pet i could work Proof with under a Tight Schedule. I let a little too much slip during my last Thread.

      Name:  Fire-Proof 6 somewhere.jpg
Views: 52
Size:  171.2 KB
      Name:  Fire-Proof 7.jpg
Views: 52
Size:  166.7 KB
      Name:  Fire-Proof before 8.jpg
Views: 53
Size:  170.0 KB
      Name:  Fire-Proof 8.jpg
Views: 52
Size:  168.1 KB

      Ok so the big one here is Proof...I had already figured the Fomula of my other pets didn't fit that had Proofs on them.

      (2xStr+2xAgil+Power)/125

      New Equation is

      (2xStr+2xAgil+Power-65)/125

      oh shucks....and we thought we saw a pattern.

      It took closer to 3 days to get everything in Order. I hope this was found Useful of course. Obviously it is time for people to run off and prove these are Correct. Mind you I didn't get a chance to get to Spell-Defy.

      Spell Defy is I think but I can't confirm (2xStr+2xAgil+Power-125)/250 but i can't confirm it at this time.

      I know this was alot but it should be very well taken I am sure, once your pets have been calculated.



      Anyways this has been
      BLSK


      here is another special helper that didn't make the Cut...he was being used for Pip O'plenty and Ice Shot

      Name:  zPic of Lord Zoey 2.jpg
Views: 48
Size:  92.9 KB
      Name:  Ice-Shot 6.jpg
Views: 49
Size:  171.6 KB
      Name:  zPic of Lord Zoey 3.jpg
Views: 49
Size:  90.2 KB
      Name:  Ice-Shot 6.jpg
Views: 49
Size:  171.6 KB
      Name:  Pop O'Plenty 4 think.jpg
Views: 49
Size:  182.0 KB
      Name:  Picture 2013-01-06 17-13-26.jpg
Views: 51
Size:  188.0 KB
      THE FIRST OF 'THE FORCE OF SEVEN'

    3. #3
      benjoromo's Avatar
        benjoromo is offline Magus Wizard

      • benjoromo's Wizard Stats
        •  Wizard's Name:
        •  Wolf
        •  Wizard's Level:
        •  70
        •  World:
        •  Wizard City
        •  Wizard's School:
        •  Life
        •  Pet's Name:
        •  King Nala
        •  Pet's Type:
        •  Life Bat
      Status: Fantitiliastic
       
      Mood:
      Geeky
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2011
      Posts
      1,117
      PvP Tournaments Won
      0
      Thanks (Given)
      1715
      Thanks (Received)
      1082
      Gold
      1,688.00

      Re: New Pet Talent Calculations

      Really nice, thank you for noticing these issues. Most people are completely oblivious to these little nuances in the formulas. You did a great job figuring out so much.

      From what I have seen though, I would say the issue is not with the wiki but rather with the way wizard101 displays the data. If you go back to the shot formulas the wiki gives it as

      (2*Intellect + 2*Agility+ Power)/200

      Where you rewrite it as:

      (2xIntel+2xAgil+Power-100)/200

      Now we could perform a little algebraic manipulation to your formula and write it in the form:

      (2*Intellect + 2*Agility + Power)/200 - 100/200

      Or more obviously, what I am getting at is the formula you suggested is:

      (2*Intellect + 2*Agility + Power)/200 - 0.5

      You see what is going on and the explanation for the apparent discrepancies between the wiki formula and what you are seeing is the wiki formula needs to be rounded after you produce the calculation. Then formula you are suggesting would need to be truncated in order to work correctly. I know you don't mention truncation but you are doing implicitly if not explicitly.

      One final note, the only number I would take issue with is the 65 for the proof formulas. I think it needs to be 62.5 for every thing to work out correctly. Though you said you were throwing that together at the last minute which explains that pretty minor discrepancy. That particular number is pretty hard to nail down considering that it can fluctuate as much as 0.39% just because of the types of number KingsIsle uses.
      Last edited by benjoromo; 1-8-13 at 12:16 PM.
      KingsIsle is being foolish by not implementing one of the reasonable solutions to the bank and backpack restrictions.

    4. #4
      BLSK's Avatar
        BLSK is offline Apprentice Wizard

      • BLSK's Wizard Stats
        •  Wizard's Name:
        •  Valdus Sandmask(Balance)Justin Moonmask(Ice)Justin(Death)Justin(Life)Justin(Fire)Justin(Myth)
        •  Wizard's Level:
        •  90
        •  World:
        •  Azteca
        •  Wizard's School:
        •  Balance
        •  Pet's Name:
        •  Sir Fluffy(needs tuneups though :P)
        •  Pet's Type:
        •  Therizinosaurus
      ----
       
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2010
      Posts
      61
      PvP Tournaments Won
      0
      Thanks (Given)
      2
      Thanks (Received)
      15
      Gold
      57.82

      Re: New Pet Talent Calculations

      I think it would be easier to read for say 8 or 10 year olds that may stumble on the wiki saying '- 100' in general for thats what it is being reduced by. It was the Variable that was missing.

      As for the Proof... I still have a plus or 2 i could muster on my Dragon.... if it was 62.5 then i would of only progressed 63 max between but I had hit the 8% and the 7 percent....I went one number at a time You see how the 7% is 199 Energy? I went exactly 65 from that point and it came still to equal 1 less than the percent or 125.

      But of course as I said.....Do it....Go get a Proof pet any proof pet and balance it out to the (Percent-1)125+65. I am sure it will be at the Percent you had formerly put in. And do it for the one above it and i mean do these with your pet. Now for Spell Defy....It is a fact they dont go up at same time. Just look around as i had stated. Now I would like to add more to Proofs though with Defy. I am confident though it is 125 for the negative for it almost perfectly fits my Defy. Just that one....but it fit. I would rather have some concrete proof though before i 'Confirmed' the 125 for that one plus some pictures of the 9 and the 5 or i think even 7 and 4.

      I should be maybe able to get another sea dragon or Miss Kobe of course the Pip O'Plenty Pet i specifically showed might get Spell Defy and spell Proof we can hope XD.

      Anyways...Try it out.....I already jumped the 65 and i am sure it can be done again...

      Real question is...anyone that tried it actually dispute it? Either way I plan to have Spell Defy figured out....Just gotta wait....
      THE FIRST OF 'THE FORCE OF SEVEN'

    5. #5
      benjoromo's Avatar
        benjoromo is offline Magus Wizard

      • benjoromo's Wizard Stats
        •  Wizard's Name:
        •  Wolf
        •  Wizard's Level:
        •  70
        •  World:
        •  Wizard City
        •  Wizard's School:
        •  Life
        •  Pet's Name:
        •  King Nala
        •  Pet's Type:
        •  Life Bat
      Status: Fantitiliastic
       
      Mood:
      Geeky
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2011
      Posts
      1,117
      PvP Tournaments Won
      0
      Thanks (Given)
      1715
      Thanks (Received)
      1082
      Gold
      1,688.00

      Re: New Pet Talent Calculations

      Quote Originally Posted by darktomber View Post
      I think it would be easier to read for say 8 or 10 year olds that may stumble on the wiki saying '- 100' in general for thats what it is being reduced by. It was the Variable that was missing.
      You are probably correct on this front. I really don't know. I do know I have a son around that age and I certainly struggle to see the world from his point of view.

      Quote Originally Posted by darktomber View Post
      Anyways...Try it out.....I already jumped the 65 and i am sure it can be done again...

      Real question is...anyone that tried it actually dispute it? Either way I plan to have Spell Defy figured out....Just gotta wait....
      I am sure it can be done again also. The difference between your 65 and my 62.5 corresponds to a constant 0.02% difference in the value of the predicted resistance. Or, stated another way a 1.25 difference in strength or agility units or a 2.5 difference in power units.

      Here is why I prefer the form used in the wiki formulas: When the attributes governing a talent are zero the predicted value is also zero. In your formula suggestions it is -0.5 in all cases except for the suggested proof formula which is -0.52. I just think that 0.5 creeping in again is highly suggestive of rounding.

      Another bit of circumstantial evidence is the recent discovery that the pet talent Defender does not even agree with itself. On the pet screen it uses truncation and on the character screen it rounds. It disagrees with itself as often as the wiki disagrees with what is displayed on the other talents you mentioned.
      KingsIsle is being foolish by not implementing one of the reasonable solutions to the bank and backpack restrictions.

    6. #6
      zoopl2's Avatar
        zoopl2 is offline Initiate Wizard

      • zoopl2's Wizard Stats
        •  Wizard's Name:
        •  Michael Owlhaven
        •  Wizard's Level:
        •  90
        •  World:
        •  Azteca
        •  Wizard's School:
        •  Myth
        •  Pet's Name:
        •  orio
        •  Pet's Type:
        •  egg
      Status: shneaky very shneaky
       
      Mood:
      Sneaky
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2010
      Posts
      194
      PvP Tournaments Won
      0
      Thanks (Given)
      13
      Thanks (Received)
      92
      Gold
      88.66

      Re: New Pet Talent Calculations

      Wow this is really really useful!

    7. #7
      ErinEmeraldflame's Avatar
        ErinEmeraldflame is offline Wiki Master
      ----
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2010
      Posts
      1,344
      PvP Tournaments Won
      0
      Thanks (Given)
      788
      Thanks (Received)
      1355
      Gold
      3,525.86

      Re: New Pet Talent Calculations

      I think there is a very basic confusion here regarding how the math works. None of this shows any mistakes in the equations, rather a misunderstanding of how the values are calculated in game. The values in game are rounded, there are several proofs of this, which I will come back to. So your statements saying that the wiki is wrong are incorrect, all of your pet data perfectly match and prove the current equations perfectly.

      Long story short, the values from the equations are rounded. This is common and proven in the game in many ways. I have added a notation to all talents stating "Please note that all values are rounded in game and the minimum is 1" to mitigate further confusion of this sort and indicate exactly how the equations are intended to be used. If you want further details, read down.

      -----------------------------------------------------------

      As benjoromo concisely put it, you are ultimately advocating that "0.5" is subtracted from the final result, which eliminates the rounding which everyone else on the site uses. Subtracting 100/200 and 125/250 is the same as subtracting 0.5, regardless of how it is shown.

      First you made a mathematical error in regards to your equations. You are subtracting when you should be adding. Your equations do not give good results because of this. They change the results so that instead of values between 2.5 to 3.49 resulting in "3" the values of 2 to 2.99 result in "3". Or to put it another way, your equations have -0.49 to 0.99 equal to 1. Neither of these results makes sense. If you added instead, then values of 3 to 3.99 are equal to 3 and values between 0.51 and 1.99 are equal to 1 (since 1 is a minimum for all talents).

      Now, there are some issues with your method:

      1) Rounding will still occur. Values of 2.949 will round to 2.95 because of how the game rounds numbers and this will round to 3. You cannot escape the rounding as it will always come into play, regardless of adding a geometric modifier to change the intercept of the equation. So trying to escape the rounding will never happen, and adding a geometric modifier through addition or subtraction adds a level of complexity which, without rounding, results in less accurate equations.

      2) Your issue with "62.5" and "65" for your Fire-Proof calculations is actually because you did not train carefully across the transition. You trained several points at a time and "skipped" the 62.5 mark. Because you are not training one attribute point at a time, you cannot say that because it went up 65 points later that that is the transition. You have to train one point at a time across a boundary to pinpoint it properly. Also, because specialized truncated rounding plays into this as well in the game code, so sometimes it will be 124 and other times it will be 126.

      3) Adding a new expression within the parenthetic part of the equation, regardless of it being addition or subtraction, adds a level of complexity which far exceeds rounding.

      4) A change like this eliminates the simplicity and consistency of the equations. The equations are all a parenthetic numerator (2X+2Y+Z) multiplied against a constant. The constant is the only value that changes. This means that the math for everyone to use is consistent and familiar. Introducing a new constant, which is half the previous constant, and which is put into the numerator, is tremendously complex and will add confusion. Also, the current equations only require whole numbers, no decimals or fractions. Your method would require decimals for many talents (62.5 for the /125 ones, 66.67 for the *3/400 ones, 4.167 for the 3/25 ones).

      5) The consistency between the equations actually proves that they are a very good match to what is coded into the game. Adding the new number eliminates that consistency which would indicate an answer further from the truth.

      Coming back to rounding, there are actually several lines of proof for it as opposed to a subtraction or addition.

      1) The consistency between the equations I mention above.

      2) Because of differences in how some values display on the pet versus on your wizard, it has actually been proven that in certain cases the individual values on your pet do not add to the same value on your wizard. e.g. 4+5=8. In these cases, it was shown that the actual calculated values were 3.5ish and 4.5ish, which do total 8. This is definitive proof that rounding occurs and that the value in the display is a rounded one.

      3) Extensive math done by benjoromo not only shows the rounding but also calculates how it is done by the game. Games don't store digits to infinity because this would make them too slow, so they round them to a finite amount first. Then, this amount is further rounded off to generate the value presented to you in the game. This math (shown here) only explains all of the minor discrepancies observed in pet talents. I have tested it hundreds of times and found it perfectly explains minor variances in rounding (such as 2.949 rounding to 2.95 and then to 3 instead of just to 2.9) Not only that, it nearly perfectly explains the minor variances observed in duels with damage and healing which I have been noting for years.

      So, there is extensive and longstanding work proving that rounding occurs and how it occurs. The equations have been proven correct as rounding equations because of how discrete values from similar talents add together to produce a final result. The consistency of the current equations also lends an element of proof to their validity. Also, there are only 13 equations in the wiki, so it is not a "very large section of the wiki".
      Erin Emeraldflame

    8. #8
      BLSK's Avatar
        BLSK is offline Apprentice Wizard

      • BLSK's Wizard Stats
        •  Wizard's Name:
        •  Valdus Sandmask(Balance)Justin Moonmask(Ice)Justin(Death)Justin(Life)Justin(Fire)Justin(Myth)
        •  Wizard's Level:
        •  90
        •  World:
        •  Azteca
        •  Wizard's School:
        •  Balance
        •  Pet's Name:
        •  Sir Fluffy(needs tuneups though :P)
        •  Pet's Type:
        •  Therizinosaurus
      ----
       
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2010
      Posts
      61
      PvP Tournaments Won
      0
      Thanks (Given)
      2
      Thanks (Received)
      15
      Gold
      57.82

      Re: New Pet Talent Calculations

      rounding...I would not dispute damage you take is rounded...but is it 62.5 or 65...rounding would make it 63...so did you happen to try out this 63 before saying...

      Now on the other hand...You say subtraction is Illogical. So why would 1 pet go up at say 300 and it go up again at 500? It seems Obvious there is something off between those 2. if your right the answer is 300 per % then 250 per Percent then for 700 it would be 233.3333333333333333333333333 per percent. Now how is that Logical? a changing value....My pets went up exactly where I expected them to once I saw the 'NEGATIVE' number. Point is those are obviously not correct in general.

      You say addition is logical....you can still add a negative number. As I said I am not disbuting there isnt rounding going on. but you are saying if a pet happened to have +30% attack boost it would have a value that is 6000 where as the info shows its 6100. and I mean on the point it goes up at....

      As for Rounding yet again.....I would like to see what the percent chance of a fail pip is at with 1% at 249 just before 2.

      you may also say this is Tiny almost itsy bitsy. But I dont know about you... I consider Pets the most important thing in the game. I already have Great Armor, Great Wand...and wouldn't really need to know much about the armor...

      Now I do know htere are issues out there.....Like Rings giving 1% when it clearly says it is 3.75% aka 19 block. On top of that...

      I know that Balances get 1% Critical Per 10 Critical rather than Other players getting 1% per 5 or even 4

      I understand I am not Ben... Never will be....But i have also noticed Differences and never fully understood why the Wiki was wrong even back closer to 2 years ago....I didnt use the wiki really for the calculations just what pets had potenial for....Sure my pets say they are much stronger than the wiki says. and if you want to keep saying that is true then I don't mind. It only makes makes Gods out of Ants. Acusing me of not knowing what i am talking about though does hurt....FOR!
      Name:  Them together.jpg
Views: 24
Size:  176.9 KB
      Name:  Ring.jpg
Views: 24
Size:  160.3 KB
      Name:  Athame.jpg
Views: 22
Size:  161.2 KB

      for I had noticed those 1% each does kinda define an issue with any calculations. On the other hand as mainly a balance....

      Name:  Critical in Balance Gear.jpg
Views: 22
Size:  191.0 KB

      You have that....

      Name:  Critical in Ice Gear.jpg
Views: 23
Size:  185.8 KB
      Name:  Critical in Death Gear.jpg
Views: 21
Size:  187.6 KB
      Or that.....

      I have had to figure out what was best for me. I am only showing it in Legends Gear dont get me wrong but it proves there are different Ideals for all wizards too. Maybe the diffence is the Wizard.

      Anyways.....You call say I know nothing if you think it is constructive. You want wizards to show proof....I had done so and it does prove accurate...if you think changing something that has been around 2 years is Illogical as you imply...fine....But I dont know about you but I would rather use the 'REAL CALCULATIONS' then 'FAKE' calculations being a 27 year old with a very high understanding of math and still havent found a math I can't easily do as long as I have looked into it.

      Ill go back to having fun and of course more studying of things like C++ and JC++ as I do enjoy. I hate to tell ya but anyone would use a 'Negative' number where they thought it would fit...
      Attached Images Attached Images   
      THE FIRST OF 'THE FORCE OF SEVEN'

    9. #9
      ErinEmeraldflame's Avatar
        ErinEmeraldflame is offline Wiki Master
      ----
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2010
      Posts
      1,344
      PvP Tournaments Won
      0
      Thanks (Given)
      788
      Thanks (Received)
      1355
      Gold
      3,525.86

      Re: New Pet Talent Calculations

      Quote Originally Posted by darktomber View Post
      rounding...I would not dispute damage you take is rounded...but is it 62.5 or 65...rounding would make it 63...so did you happen to try out this 63 before saying...
      Telling you it would be 62.5 and not 65 has nothing to do with rounding. Also, 62.5 would not round to 63 as that is not how rounding works in game.
      -Using the correct wiki equations, if you properly track the pet from birth to full stats one point at a time, they increase at 125 points nearly all the time excepting for the special rounding situations created by the game which I already described.
      -Using your method, if properly tracked one point at a time, it would increase at 63 half the time and at 62 the other half of the time. You cannot accurately measure when the change happens if you increase the pets stats by 4 points across a transition. A more careful methodology is required.

      Quote Originally Posted by darktomber View Post
      Now on the other hand...You say subtraction is Illogical.
      The subtraction makes your equations incorrect. By your own equations, your Defender Pig would have a Spell-Proof of 9.14, but it clearly has 10. The wiki gives a value of 9.64, which rounds to 10 and is correct. 9 does not equal 10 and -0.3 cannot equal 1. Similar mistakes happen with all your equations. The wiki equations do not produce a measure of when change happens, they produce the end result with less math.

      Quote Originally Posted by darktomber View Post
      Now I do know htere are issues out there.....Like Rings giving 1% when it clearly says it is 3.75% aka 19 block. On top of that...
      I know that Balances get 1% Critical Per 10 Critical rather than Other players getting 1% per 5 or even 4
      Critical and Critical Block do not work this way. The contribution to percentage changes based on your level. This has been proven many times and KingsIsle has confirmed it publicly.

      Quote Originally Posted by darktomber View Post
      I understand I am not Ben... Never will be....But i have also noticed Differences and never fully understood why the Wiki was wrong even back closer to 2 years ago....I didnt use the wiki really for the calculations just what pets had potenial for....Sure my pets say they are much stronger than the wiki says. and if you want to keep saying that is true then I don't mind. It only makes makes Gods out of Ants. Acusing me of not knowing what i am talking about though does hurt....FOR!
      The wiki did not have any of this information two years ago, I only added the equations last year after the equations were well-established and well-tested.

      Your pets are not stronger than what the wiki says. If you use the equations on the wiki, and round the value to the nearest whole number (with 0.5 rounding up) every value you produced in images works perfectly. I checked all the math myself twice.
      Erin Emeraldflame

    10. #10
      BLSK's Avatar
        BLSK is offline Apprentice Wizard

      • BLSK's Wizard Stats
        •  Wizard's Name:
        •  Valdus Sandmask(Balance)Justin Moonmask(Ice)Justin(Death)Justin(Life)Justin(Fire)Justin(Myth)
        •  Wizard's Level:
        •  90
        •  World:
        •  Azteca
        •  Wizard's School:
        •  Balance
        •  Pet's Name:
        •  Sir Fluffy(needs tuneups though :P)
        •  Pet's Type:
        •  Therizinosaurus
      ----
       
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2010
      Posts
      61
      PvP Tournaments Won
      0
      Thanks (Given)
      2
      Thanks (Received)
      15
      Gold
      57.82

      Re: New Pet Talent Calculations

      Quote Originally Posted by ErinEmeraldflame View Post
      I think there is a very basic confusion here regarding how the math works. None of this shows any mistakes in the equations, rather a misunderstanding of how the values are calculated in game. The values in game are rounded, there are several proofs of this, which I will come back to. So your statements saying that the wiki is wrong are incorrect, all of your pet data perfectly match and prove the current equations perfectly.

      Long story short, the values from the equations are rounded. This is common and proven in the game in many ways. I have added a notation to all talents stating "Please note that all values are rounded in game and the minimum is 1" to mitigate further confusion of this sort and indicate exactly how the equations are intended to be used. If you want further details, read down.

      -----------------------------------------------------------

      As benjoromo concisely put it, you are ultimately advocating that "0.5" is subtracted from the final result, which eliminates the rounding which everyone else on the site uses. Subtracting 100/200 and 125/250 is the same as subtracting 0.5, regardless of how it is shown.

      First you made a mathematical error in regards to your equations. You are subtracting when you should be adding. Your equations do not give good results because of this. They change the results so that instead of values between 2.5 to 3.49 resulting in "3" the values of 2 to 2.99 result in "3". Or to put it another way, your equations have -0.49 to 0.99 equal to 1. Neither of these results makes sense. If you added instead, then values of 3 to 3.99 are equal to 3 and values between 0.51 and 1.99 are equal to 1 (since 1 is a minimum for all talents).

      Now, there are some issues with your method:

      1) Rounding will still occur. Values of 2.949 will round to 2.95 because of how the game rounds numbers and this will round to 3. You cannot escape the rounding as it will always come into play, regardless of adding a geometric modifier to change the intercept of the equation. So trying to escape the rounding will never happen, and adding a geometric modifier through addition or subtraction adds a level of complexity which, without rounding, results in less accurate equations.

      2) Your issue with "62.5" and "65" for your Fire-Proof calculations is actually because you did not train carefully across the transition. You trained several points at a time and "skipped" the 62.5 mark. Because you are not training one attribute point at a time, you cannot say that because it went up 65 points later that that is the transition. You have to train one point at a time across a boundary to pinpoint it properly. Also, because specialized truncated rounding plays into this as well in the game code, so sometimes it will be 124 and other times it will be 126.

      3) Adding a new expression within the parenthetic part of the equation, regardless of it being addition or subtraction, adds a level of complexity which far exceeds rounding.

      4) A change like this eliminates the simplicity and consistency of the equations. The equations are all a parenthetic numerator (2X+2Y+Z) multiplied against a constant. The constant is the only value that changes. This means that the math for everyone to use is consistent and familiar. Introducing a new constant, which is half the previous constant, and which is put into the numerator, is tremendously complex and will add confusion. Also, the current equations only require whole numbers, no decimals or fractions. Your method would require decimals for many talents (62.5 for the /125 ones, 66.67 for the *3/400 ones, 4.167 for the 3/25 ones).

      5) The consistency between the equations actually proves that they are a very good match to what is coded into the game. Adding the new number eliminates that consistency which would indicate an answer further from the truth.

      Coming back to rounding, there are actually several lines of proof for it as opposed to a subtraction or addition.

      1) The consistency between the equations I mention above.

      2) Because of differences in how some values display on the pet versus on your wizard, it has actually been proven that in certain cases the individual values on your pet do not add to the same value on your wizard. e.g. 4+5=8. In these cases, it was shown that the actual calculated values were 3.5ish and 4.5ish, which do total 8. This is definitive proof that rounding occurs and that the value in the display is a rounded one.

      3) Extensive math done by benjoromo not only shows the rounding but also calculates how it is done by the game. Games don't store digits to infinity because this would make them too slow, so they round them to a finite amount first. Then, this amount is further rounded off to generate the value presented to you in the game. This math (shown here) only explains all of the minor discrepancies observed in pet talents. I have tested it hundreds of times and found it perfectly explains minor variances in rounding (such as 2.949 rounding to 2.95 and then to 3 instead of just to 2.9) Not only that, it nearly perfectly explains the minor variances observed in duels with damage and healing which I have been noting for years.

      So, there is extensive and longstanding work proving that rounding occurs and how it occurs. The equations have been proven correct as rounding equations because of how discrete values from similar talents add together to produce a final result. The consistency of the current equations also lends an element of proof to their validity. Also, there are only 13 equations in the wiki, so it is not a "very large section of the wiki".
      So you havent tested it...Well don't Even though My calculations are Fully Correct...They are Entirely wrong....

      Problem is I decided to Test out the Proofs and its actually Disturbing...

      With my Formula it comes to 7.37% resist 'WHEN' the pet says 8% Problem is even if you use the Wiki Formula that already exists it is .2% off.

      Now ben says he did extensive and you said you did Extensive....Why is it even these figures....Its off by .2%.

      It calls for Testing... He says at 8% you have 8% and yet he also says when you have 8% you have 7.61 yet when i do it its 7.37 unless his 8% is based off the wiki where i get 7.82 not 7.61....or was his figure 8.39? He said he used a 7 pip Judge which does not Support any actual data. 875 is an Odd Number which i used Efreet which of coruse is 895....barely different but both saying different Figures...

      Now I wouldn't round 7.37 to 8% no matter how you look at it. The game is Obviously Bugged. UNLESS we can prove ourselves wrong.

      Now you used a 7 pip judge...why? 10 is an even 1k which would give matter support of a Table. I had Efreet cause it was a Fire Proof not Spell Proof. Also Efreet is a Far Cry from 875.

      Maybe all the Percents arent the same? Ben....you up to get hit by me judge? 7 pips is nice but a very Messy Number. Odd numbers just dont fit the buck. Maybe my damage i took was rounded down...or even rounded up. What if the 8% was actually 7%. Frankly cause finding KI did such a messy Talent I would wonder if its the Formula they use that is Wrong. It doesnt hit the marks it should.

      I am going to put in my post at the time DisRegard Proofs for its very messy... Testing out Givers better but it seems Messy too.

      I dont think Figuring it out will be easy....You want to say I am wrong...Turns out I should be Right....Your Extensive Testing isnt fittings either. No stat should be that far off....May have to find out if KI can figure out where they went wrong.
      THE FIRST OF 'THE FORCE OF SEVEN'

    Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •